• thriveinc

Staying Vulnerable and Curious in Conversation with Bill Hollis and Jackie Shannon Hollis

Updated: Nov 18, 2019

We’ve talked about the power of vulnerability and the power of curiosity on the podcast before and today we’re excited to welcome Bill Hollis and Jackie Shannon Hollis because they share stories of how important these tools have been for their own conversations.


We especially loved that Bill and Jackie shared with us the tools they’ve used from our books to navigate their own uncomfortable conversations and conflict. These stories are a rich example of why using these tools can be so impactful.


We also loved getting a chance to read Jackie’s upcoming book, This Particular Happiness: A Childless Love Story which will be available on Tuesday.


We are grateful for Bill and Jackie sharing with such humor their story with us, and we hope to hear from you what takeaways you have from today’s episode.


Listen on Apple Podcast | Stitcher | Spotify


Learn More:


Find Your Mojo in Montana - Early bird is open now

The Beauty of Conflict for Couples


Full Transcript:

CrisMarie: So welcome. We have a very special episode today. We are interviewing Jackie Shannon Hollis and Bill Hollis, who one, are longtime friends. Susan, you've known Bill for many years.


Susan: Yes, I've known Bill for many, many years.


CrisMarie: and the special occasion, is well. We love to interview couples but Jackie also, her book is coming out in October, This Particular Happiness: A Childless Love Story, so we are thrilled. We'll talk to her about that and all sorts of stuff. So welcome Jackie and Bill.


Jackie: Hi Susan and CrisMarie.


Bill: Hi both of you.


Jackie: We're happy to be here. Yeah. I mean, just seeing your process with your books and your podcast has been really fun to witness and now I'll get to be a part of.


Susan: Yes, because I, Jackie, have to say, I so enjoyed reading your book, one because I think you're quite a wonderful writer, and it was very personal and real and it talked about a topic that I think maybe doesn't get talked about that much, and also I had a sweet spot in it because I know Bill and so I enjoyed seeing elements of it where you shared him I think in a respectful way, but he was revealed. So it'll be interesting to talk to you guys about that, because there were various points in the book that I thought where there might be potential conflict, things we could talk about today and how you guys addressed them and dealt with them. But it's a beautiful book, so just wanted to say that.


Jackie: Well, thank you. I'm really excited about it. It's almost here and it's been quite a journey and I'm really tickled that Bill has been supportive in how I've written about him, just the fact that I've shared about our relationship, and so that's been really cool. And it's interesting because we read your first book, The Beauty of Conflict. Well, I always want to say the pain slash beauty of conflict.


CrisMarie: It is on the cover that way.


Jackie: And then we just finished an advanced reader copy of your newest book, The Beauty of Conflict for Couples, and it was so interesting to me just in the context of my book and our relationship how many parallels there were, even though yours is, what would you call it, a more prescriptive book in terms of guidelines and tasks and exercises people can do, but just how we moved through conflict, so much of it was similar.


Bill: For me, what I found interesting in the opt-out style in both books, because I use both of your books. I'm a consultant for some organizations and I used your Beauty of Conflict in the Workplace, and it was quite remarkable. What I found out about myself was in the opt-out styles in relationships that now after 33 years with Jackie, I tend to use all three styles of relationship, I was definitely a separator. And so, I mean, if I get my feelings hurt or if I felt attacked, I could literally go away for a week at a time. And Jackie threw me back in. And now in retrospect, as I look at these opt-out styles, I realize that I have an awareness now of, "Oh, I'm being a superstar. I think I'm right," dah, dah, dah, or, "Oh, I have an awareness. I'm starting to separate again," and so just having that consciousness of, "Oh, this is what I'm doing," with that style seems to give me more choice in the moment to either stay with or to go someplace else, and so I find that really rewarding.


CrisMarie: That's neat. I'll just give for our listeners, so in our model we talk about when you bump into conflict, how that tension rises up inside of you and between you and another person, and we're not comfortable with that tension, so we tend to want to opt out, like get away from it. And we talk about three typical styles that we see, one being the superstar, like, "It's my way. I'm going to go ahead and do it." They value action and results and, "Somebody's going to thank me in the end." There's the accommodator, which is, "Okay, nevermind. I'll do it your way. I just keep the peace," because they value harmony in relationships. And then there's a separator, which you were talking about Bill, in the relationship where it's kind of like, "Well, I'm just going to leave emotionally and physically," because they value clarity and calm, "And I'll come back when everything's calmed down a little bit." I just wanted to give people that context.


And also, Jackie and Bill, tell us a little bit about who you are as a couple, how long you've been together, kind of even the work you've each done so our readers have that, our listeners have that context.


Jackie: Cool. Well, I will start. We've been together for 32 years and married for 20 ... well, almost 30 years, so a long time. I have a background in counseling. I have a master's in social work. I did that work for a number of years. And then about 15 years ago, I quit. I also worked in human resources. Anyway, I quit those jobs and began writing, and I came to it late. I was in my early 40s when I started writing. Well, that's more than 20 years ago, 15 years ago. Now I'm a writer and an author, and then Bill and I have done work together over the last 20 years as well. We've done trainings together with emergency services workers, which sort of tags on probably what you want to say about yourself.


Bill: Little history on me. I was a firefighter paramedic for 25 years. Quite loved it. Happenestantially, I ended up going to a school up in Canada where I met Susan and ended up with a counseling degree. And the fire chief found out, "Well, hey, we got this firefighter that's got some experience in stress areas. Why don't we see if you can talk him into coming in on days and using some of those skills to help deal with issues in the fire service we might not be aware of?" And so I took a temporary assignment that lasted 15 years and became the mental health professional for the fire department.


I found it incredibly rewarding. For me, the opportunity to give back to people in their time of crisis who had given their whole lives to the community they served was incredibly rewarding, and so I found that quite enjoyable. Today, so Jackie and I work as consultants typically for areas where people deal with a lot of stress, so fire service, dispatch, ambulance companies, a lot of state agencies and stuff. And I enjoy working with Jackie. I think people love to have a couple up on stage. I can imagine it with you, too, we use our relationship as an example of the conflicts and stuff.


Happenstantially, one of the organizations I worked for, the 911 Dispatch Center for our area, I've worked with them for 20 years. So I used your book, Beauty of Conflict in the Workplace, and I was really amazed at how significant an impact it had. I was thinking back to, "Why is this book having such an impact? Why am I being successful? Why are the people being engaged?" And what I think I realized was you talk about in your book that it's simple, basic, easy to follow stuff, and I would agree.


And so what was interesting, so I had the executive staff all read the book before I met with them and when we got to the part on the opt-out styles and when I was working with them in the group going through that, there was this light bulb that went off for them and you could see they became engaged. It was like, "Oh, my style's a superstar," and they were talking about themselves and some of them, "Oh, well, I'm a separator," and dah, dah, dah. It's when they identified themselves in the book, when they saw, "Oh, this is where I could use this book to help me," it all came together, and the cool thing was not only did they identify themselves and accept themselves, they accepted the other, "Oh, well, you're an accommodator. Of course, you're going to act way," and so it really brought the group together. So thank you for the gift of that book. It was really helpful for me.


Susan: I love what you're saying, Bill, and you brought this up earlier. I think the thing that strikes me most about the opt-out style is so many times when I've been coaching with people, they want to get rid of something like, "Okay, I don't ever want to be a reactive person. I don't want to do this." In some respects, that separation just keeps it more embedded. And so when people can start to talk about it and see, "Oh yeah, that's what I do," and recognize themselves and own it, that is so much different, and I think it allows for a different choice. And like you said, sometimes one is really familiar and then eventually you start to recognize, "Wait a minute, I do this too." And I think when teams and couples get there, it can be so much more refreshing to recognize, it's not always about being intimate and perfect and relational. It's also about being able to recognize I do react and here's what it looks like and I can own it, maybe even laugh about it and shift it.


CrisMarie: Rather than trying to push it away.


Susan: Rather than trying to push it away.


CrisMarie: That's great. Yeah.


Jackie: One of the things that ... I mean, Bill and I, I mean, you can imagine, you know, just when you're together for a number of years, that experience of how you enter conflict, and we knew going in we were going to have conflict. We'd done enough research in other relationships.


Susan: Experiential research.


Bill: a lot of research.


Jackie: We knew that and we knew we were going to go through this falling in love, the romantic experience, the projection, the hope, and then there's going to be this time where all of that changes, and how are we going to do that? And even knowing that we had different ways of dealing with conflict, it was quite a journey. I would say in the last five years it's a much smoother process, but there've been times where it's been really challenging and I've been proud of the way that both of us have stayed through that.


Susan: I really, I appreciated that even in reading your book, Jackie, kind of, you could see the context of that journey and a lot of different choice points where either you or possibly Bill could've given up just based upon that, the whole decision around children and what was happening with it. And I'm sure there are other areas. I actually even thought the same thing may have been true when you were making decisions about your career and shifting from your job to writing and how easy it would have been to make it about Bill if you are an accommodator and, "I'm not going to do it because he doesn't want me to," or trying to stay true to yourself and recognizing, "Maybe it's my own fear that's stopping me." But so often in couples it can become like, "Okay, you're the one who's not letting me do it." And I can imagine that's a shift make as well.


Jackie: Yeah. Yes.


CrisMarie: Jackie, why don't you just give the context of the big question you were investigating and sharing basically through your story of this particular happiness.


Jackie: Yes. So I was raised in a generation, the '60s, and '70s, in a place, on a ranch in a small town in eastern Oregon that was ... Girls were expected to grow up and become mothers. You could do other things. Certainly, in my generation there was the idea you could have it all, but a primary thing was to become a mother. And so I thought that would be what would happen with me. And then I went through a number of relationships, that research, and then I went through some personal growth seminars that just made me really think about, "Well, why do I want to have a child?" and realized that I was doing it just as this automatic thing and expectation.


By the time I met Bill, when I was in my late 20s, I felt pretty settled with the idea that I think I'll be okay not having children, and he didn't want to have children. We got married, me saying, "Yes, that's going to be fine," and very, very soon after the marriage, I was with my family and holding one of my newest nieces, and I learned of my mother's disappointment about me not having children and my father's disappointment, although that was expressed through mom. It just shook me, shook the decision that I had come to, and I felt just this very powerful, powerful urge to have a child.


I understood in that moment that a big part of it was because I felt left out. I felt the disappointment of my parents and my family and that if I just had a child, that would go away. But at the same time that this was going on, my body began to long for a child, so there were all these things that didn't feel logical to me. And then I clearly wanted to be with Bill. And so I made the decision, "I'm going to stay. I want to be with him, but how do I do this without resentment?" And that was the exploration is, "How do I understand this wanting in me? How do I stay without resentment?" And I also held a lot of my longing underground. Not a lot of people really understood, knew about it. I was pretty secretive about it because I wanted to present a, "I know exactly what I'm doing," picture of myself, so it was complicated.


Bill: It was complicated for me because Jackie was pretty clear that she was fine with not having children, which worked for me. And shortly after we got married, we're at her parents' house and all of a sudden I discovered she wants children. And so it's like, "Wow, how do I deal with this?" And so I had an interesting journey also about trying to understand because I believed that she was really honest when she made those statements and she seemed really honest now when it was different, and so how do I sort through this and work my way through that? And so it was interesting for me also.


Susan: Yeah. And it sounds like, I mean, based upon reading the book, it sounded like for you, Bill, there was this clarity that never really faltered. I actually was really struck at the end of the book where the whole situation occurred where you had this moment of, "Maybe I wish I had done this," but you were so clear. And it was like you were sort of an anchor that Jackie had to sort of bounce up against in some respects to keep coming back to herself to see, "What am I going to do with this?" because I think at one point in the book you actually said, "You could have your child," but it was almost like a, "I will still be doing this though. I want to travel. I want to do this." There were some really challenging things you guys talked about, but it seemed like you were each trying to engage and be real, what we call to be vulnerable and curious and have those conversations and not necessarily agree at the end, but see where it takes you. Is that-


Bill: Yeah. What was interesting for me, Susan, my father left when I was less than a year old, and so I never had a father in my life or a model of how to be a parent or whatever. And I had never really held a baby. I was always afraid that I was going to hold it wrong or drop it or something, so I'd never really held a baby. And then we had two friends in England that had these twins and they wanted us to come over and spend a couple of weeks.


Jackie: I'm just kind of hesitating because I don't want him to give too much away of the book.


Bill: Oh, okay. Well, anyway, I had this experience that you read on the book and if read the book, they will see that I had an experience at the very end of the book that dramatically changed my life and it really did.


Jackie: One thing that I want to say about that, and one thing that Bill and I ... That was an experience for him of, "You can't know what you don't know." Sometimes the ability to understand what someone wants ... That was some of what you were trying to get at. If you've never had that experience, it's really hard to understand.


Susan: You know, I think so much of what you're describing, a lot of times when we're working with couples that can almost seem at irreconcilable positions, it can be ... I mean, just one example I'll give is a couple I knew, and the husband wanted to teach his children how to use guns and the wife had had a flat out position, "Not in my lifetime. You are not bringing a gun into the" ... She had very strong opinions about safety, different things and they never actually talked about it. And in the course of this program that they were with us in, they decided to do what we call a five, five, five because I was inviting her, like, "I get you to have a strong position. It's not even that I disagree with you, but do you actually understand even what ... Maybe you each need to look at this differently."


And in the course of it, he started to talk about, well, one, he was a police officer, so he used a gun, but he never brought it home. Two, he actually thought children were safer. It was a whole different context around guns than she had ever heard that he was just talking about. He said, "I'm so afraid they won't know how to use it. That's when they're going to make a mistake." It was just a whole different lens, and you could see her face going, "I would never know this because it's not even something I've let into my world in any way." Now that's kind of a whole different topic, but it really struck me watching them. What was coming up was this whole different experience in life that the other person didn't have. And so we jump to our conclusions and positions sometimes based on what we know.


CrisMarie: And even what you said with this couple, Susan, but Jackie, what you were saying, I kept a lot of it underground, so that longing ... I'm sure Bill was getting some inklings of it, but I think that's so common for people to say, "This is what I really want, but I can't talk about it. I can never have it because this is the lot I signed up for in life." And I think what you describe in the book is that whole process of coming forward and digesting that in a way that you create wholeness by staying true to who you are and to continue to come forward in relationship to Bill. Just tell me where I'm wrong. Does that fit for you?


Jackie: No, that totally fits. I mean, I think that a lot of it, I felt like there was something really powerful for me to learn or understand about myself by staying and not having children with Bill. This is where I wanted to be. There was a reason I wanted to be here and that just that continual coming up against myself and how do I speak about my own needs? There was another situation that Bill and I had that went over many years and this has to do with those opt-out styles as well. When I met Bill, as he mentioned, if we had a conflict, the way it would usually look would be, he would be feeling really lovely and close to me, loving and close to me, just so affectionate. I would get, early on especially, very overwhelmed by his love, but I didn't really understand that's what was going on.


And so at some point in the middle of him being loving toward me, I would say something that he would regard as hurtful and I would just regard as, "I'm just talking here. I'm just asking you a question about something." And he would say, "Why would you do this at a moment when I'm feeling so loving toward you?" And then he would go away and we would spend all this time where I would be going after him, trying to then pull him back out of what we call the well, and he became sort of the designated emotional problem in the relationship who couldn't handle conflict, and it just was really difficult for us. And then there was a certain point about six years ago where I just ... No, this is probably 10 years ago. I said, "You can't go away anymore. You just can't do that." And he stopped and he started being present through all of this.


Bill: One thing that was interesting about that was her clarity. She was so clear, "This is not allowed anymore." The clarity, I mean, because she was so clear, I got it and I didn't have to back up against it. I went, "Oh, okay. Well, I guess I'll have to do something different." But the clarity at that moment was phenomenal and that allowed me to, "Okay, I'll have to find a different way."


Jackie: Well, I just want to say, what happened though as we went through those number of years, he didn't go away and then all of a sudden it started happening again about four or five years ago. I mean, it was kind of devastating like, "Oh God, we're going to go through this again." And this goes back to that five, five, five, really sitting and listening, then being heard and then talking through that further. He explained to me in a way that I never had heard because I was so defensive what had happened when I was saying something that was hurtful to him in those vulnerable moments.


For some reason, I began to understand it differently. Actually, what happened was there was a moment where we were making love and he was feeling really just so loving and close to me and I felt this meanness rise up in me and I realized how uncomfortable I still was after all these years with how much he loved me, how hard it was for me to let that in. And so soon after we were done doing what we were doing, I told him what had happened, that I realized in that moment that I had been pushing him away and that all of those other moments over all those years just presented themselves to me in these kind of flashes. And I understood that it was me pushing him away. It was a stunning, stunning moment. And it was one that I could not have seen because I was so defensive.


CrisMarie: I love what you're talking about. You were bumping into your upper limit, your upper capacity for loving and so you would push him away to discharge that, and how much you two have used your relationship, which, this is not always common, but used your relationship and your partner's clarity on a different position to get clear inside yourself and choose something different and grow, that is so powerful and inspiring. I' love both the loving and the going away, Bill.


Susan: I did want to mention that because I ... This is Susan and I was thinking, I would imagine ... It's so interesting because I think you two are both so ... You can tell me where I'm wrong here, but with you Jackie, your defensiveness, you didn't even know it was happening and you would push him away, which is sort of classic of someone who may have experienced some pretty high inundation situations in their life where they felt like that's how they protected themselves. And Bill, I was thinking about what you said. You never knew your father, and I would imagine any notion of abandonment would just kick off like, "I'm going first before because I'm loving here and this person isn't going to be here." Does that make any sense?


Bill: It really makes sense. I mean, yeah, I mean, I think it was that fear of once again being abandoned or being alone or left out. But what was interesting, so this whole cycle went on for about 25 years and here we both supposedly have a background in conflict resolution and communication and everything. You can be in a relationship for 25 years and still have this problem that consistently carries along like that did. But again, what was interesting when Jackie shared, "Oh my God, I have this defense and defenses only work if you're not aware you're using him." She was so clear, "Oh, I wasn't aware I was doing that," and she felt no guilt. And what was really significant about me for that, she just said, "I mean, defenses only work if you're not aware of them," so she had no guilt. What was significant about that, that I didn't have to caretake her and then I could say, "You know what it's been like for 25 years to be pushed away?" And so it allowed me then to come forward and express all those feelings. It was remarkable for both of us.


Susan: That is incredible what you just said because so often, Jackie, for you to be able to say, "Wait a minute, I've stepped into this. I get it now," and for Bill, because so many times, for you to then to be able to express what it was like, because I think sometimes that desire to, "I don't want to express more about what it's like for me because it's just going to cause you to feel guilty or beat yourself up," gets in the way so many times in a relationship, and so that's quite powerful.


CrisMarie: Yeah, the willingness to hold and tolerate and witness the impact you have had on your partner versus trying to make it go away, like, "No, it's not a big deal." We do so much not to actually see the other person and feel whatever it is inside, like, "I'm the kind of person who did that, who pushed you away because I was intolerant of my capacity to feel that loving energy."


Jackie: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I didn't want to be loved. Good God.


CrisMarie: Yeah.


Susan: Oh, I know that one, Jackie. Yeah, I get that one totally.


CrisMarie: But I mean that is that we talk about in this book, the idea of we want a relationship where we attach and feel safe, but we also want differentiation, to be our own person. And underneath that is this sense of either, "I'm afraid I'm going to be abandoned and so either I chase or I run away," or, "I'm afraid I'm going to be inundated. I have to change, I have to do what you won't do or you're going to get mad at me." Those dynamics are always pushing and pulling. What I love about your story is we have such ingrained patterns and each of you have held for the other to advance beyond your initial conditioning that you developed probably very early on.


Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think that that's the ... I do feel proud of both of us, just a real sense of we have worked really hard and it's been in some ways kind of a playground, sometimes a brutal playground.


CrisMarie: Mean kids on the playground.


Jackie: But there's always been this sense of, "I've learned something new, I'm growing." I've always had this fantasy of doing something physically super, super challenging, like rock climbing or things like that. But I feel like emotionally I have done that. I mean, push myself past the limits that I didn't even really understand I was setting on myself.


Susan: Yeah. I mean, I love that because so many people think of taking high risk things is kind of like the ultimate challenge in it. I'm not saying it's not challenging, but to develop emotional intimacy, to get to know yourself, your own inner landscape and doing that in the face of another person, I think that far more of a challenge.


CrisMarie: I think sometimes people want to go away and do personal development or do therapy and we learn so much in the container of our relationship because trauma happened in the relationship way back when or just painful situations, tiny Ts, and how we heal is in relationship. You two have taken such self-responsibility to grow. It's really very powerful and inspiring.


Bill: Well, thank you.


Jackie: Thank you. Thanks.


Bill: Yeah. I think the thing I'm most proud of is our relationship and it has been a 32 year process of getting to understand myself and Jackie, but what we have created is the thing that I'm most proud of.


CrisMarie: That is neat.


Susan: I do have to say, I mean, this may not be appropriate so I could take it out if you don't want me to tell this. But I just think back to you, I don't know if you remember this, many, many years ago we went on this bike ride. You got to understand I'm bike riding with this guy who's a firefighter, dah, dah, dah, and we're biking. There's a little bit of stuff happening on the hills and I'm thinking ... I think I may have said something to you. We were going on about a 20 mile ride. I said something to him like, "You need some help?" "No, got it. I'm good. Got it. I'm good." We went like 10 miles, very hilly island road, and we get down. Finally, he owns up, "I really don't know how to ride a bike or change gears."


CrisMarie: Oh my gosh, Bill.


Bill: I was killing himself.


Susan: He was killing himself. And I really was like, "Wow, this seems really hard for him, but he won't let me help."


Jackie: He probably wasn't even changing gears.


Susan: He wasn't. But he wasn't about to admit it, so I do think you've come a long way.


Bill: That's helpful. Appreciate you going along with me.


CrisMarie: Now Jackie, I just want to give you, as we come to a close, I want to give you a chance just to talk about the book, where people can get it, your website, all that sort of stuff. So why don't you say a little bit about that?


Jackie: Well, thank you. Cool. So my book, This Particular Happiness: A Childless Love Story releases October 1st, and it's available for preorder on any of the usual places. I really like to support IndieBound, which is a place where you can connect with a local bookstore or you can go into your bookstore and ask them if they'll carry it. Libraries will have it and if they don't, you can ask them. And I also have a link to all this information on my website at JackieShannonHollis.com.


Susan: And we will put that in the notes.


Jackie: I'm going to be doing some touring, mostly Pacific Northwest, Washington and Oregon, and I'm hoping to expand out. I'm also open to doing book clubs on Skype, just anything. If someone thinks that they can get a group of people together, I can think about coming in that direction too.


CrisMarie: That's fabulous.


Susan: Hey, well, maybe you guys will come out here to Montana and we can do something together.


Jackie: So cool to do something because there are so many parallels.


Susan: I know. There really are. True.


CrisMarie: It's like yours is the narrative of what you went through, the whole arc, and we have all the tools that support that.


Bill: I'm all in on that one. All in. Yeah.


CrisMarie: Oh, good. All right. Well, you two have been lovely. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.


Bill: You guy made it easy and thanks for the humor, Susan.


CrisMarie: Wasn't that just so fun to have them on?


Susan: That was it. There was some rich laughter especially there at the end talking about

bike rides and things like that.


CrisMarie: Yes. But the way Jackie has written and even how they shared about their relationship and story, they are a testament to what we're trying to teach in Beauty of Conflict for Couples about the benefits of hanging in and having these real conversations, how to be me in the face of you or us when you have a really different point of view.


Susan: Yes. And they gave some wonderful examples. I so appreciated how personable and real and vulnerable they were.


CrisMarie: Especially, Bill talked about the opt-out styles that we taught in our business book and how we applied it, but seeing himself as a separator.


Susan: So much of that, of the style he knew so well, and then recognizing as he said, "You know that I've developed. I do all three of them well." What I loved about that was just, that's kind of what we hope people will get is don't make yourself wrong for your opt-out style, because that will likely stop you from really being able to recognize it, own it and make a more conscious choice.


CrisMarie: But being aware of this is what you're doing and it's probably a habit you learned very young to survive what was happening back then, and you have more choice. If you're compassionate, it doesn't make it so stuck or bad.


Susan: And getting into the kind of what is behind that, because they both were such classic examples of where in our desire to be attached and also to be self-defined, what really gets in our way is when we think that there's an issue of abandonment or inundation. And that was such a rich thing. But I think they each shared about their journeys along with that.


CrisMarie: Yeah, I just think they are so fun. You can find This Particular Happiness on IndieBound, Amazon, all sorts of places. And go to Jackie, JackieShannonHollis.com, because she's got tons of speaking that she's doing. It's awesome.


Susan: Yeah, I think it's going to be great, so go look at that. Maybe we'll be with them sometimes.


CrisMarie: Yeah, yeah. We're hoping to do that and hopefully, we'll go on vacation.


Susan: Okay. All right. Bike trip.


CrisMarie: Okay, take care. Bye.


Thank you for listening to The Beauty of Conflict Podcast. And if you're interested in The Beauty of Conflict for Couples book, you can pick one up at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Apple Books or IndieBound, and the benefit is it's a simple book with practical tools that you can apply right away with stories about couples who I'm going to guess you're going to relate to. And if you've enjoyed this show, please tell a few friends and if you're willing, give us a five-star review on iTunes.


CrisMarie: Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a peaceful, productive, and beautiful day. Take good care of yourself and we hope you'll join us again for another episode.

CrisMarie Campbell and Susan Clarke


Coaches, Business Consultants, Speakers and Authors of The Beauty of Conflict

CrisMarie and Susan work leaders and teams, couples in business, and professional women.

They help turnaround dysfunctional teams into high performing, cohesive teams who trust each other, deal with differences directly, and have clarity and alignment on their business strategy so they create great results.

Connect with CrisMarie and Susan on LinkedIn.

Watch their TEDx Talk: Conflict – Use It, Don’t Defuse It!

Order their new book The Beauty of Conflict for Couples: Igniting Passion, Intimacy, and Connection in Your Relationship.


Thrive inc coaching consulting social me
Thrive inc coaching consulting social me
Thrive inc coaching consulting social me

© 2020 thrive! inc.    |    Privacy Policy