• Thrive Inc.

How to Turn Around Your Non-Profit with Barbara Gallen

Many non-profit organizations and small businesses are struggling to stay afloat after this year, and sadly, not all of them are going to make it. But there are also organizations whose trajectories have been changed forever, who have an abundance of opportunity to create something new. Today, we have a very special guest on the podcast and if you’re an executive director or staff member at a non-profit, you won't want to miss this episode!


Barbara Gallen is the Principle of Inspired Action Coaching & Consulting and is the magic-maker when it comes to non-profits. She’s spent more than 20 years leading, training, and advocating for non-profits and small businesses and she joins us today to talk all about the support she provides to non-profits to help them stabilize, get their finances in order and push forward.


Join us this week as we discuss how non-profit organizations have been affected by the pandemic and how they can plan to move forward in the future. Barbara shares the importance of funding and finance in non-profits and why it’s necessary to have a thriving, robust group of leaders versus a group of overworked, underpaid staff, for a non-profit to succeed.


If you want to make a difference for either yourself and your career, or your team and your organization, be sure to reach out to us and sign up for coaching! We can come and do a book club or simply visit with your team! Don’t worry about physical limitations – we work really well virtually, too!


If you enjoyed the show, please share the podcast with your family and friends, or post a five-star review on iTunes. Rating and reviewing the show helps spread the word, which means less friction and suffering for everyone, and who doesn’t want that?


Listen on Apple Podcast | Stitcher | Spotify


Learn More:

  • Some of the significant challenges faced by non-profits right now.

  • How the board and staff can work together more effectively.

  • Why non-profits need buy-in as well as money.

  • What double-headed management is and why it’s no good for a non-profit.

  • How to engage the people the non-profit serves.

  • Why non-profits need to invest in their staff.


Resources:



Full Transcript:



CrisMarie: Welcome to The Beauty of Conflict, a podcast about how to deal with conflict at work, at home and everywhere else in your life. I am CrisMarie.


Susan: And I'm Susan.


CrisMarie: We run a company called Thrive Inc, and we specialize in conflict resolution, stress management coaching and building strong, thriving teams and relationships.


Susan: Now, we know, no one likes conflict, not even us and we’ve written two books on the topic. In our work over the last 20 plus years we’ve found most people avoid, manage or diffuse conflict. The problem is when you opt out of conflict in these ways you miss the creativity, the connection and the possibility that lies in conflict.


CrisMarie: We also know 2020 has been, well, let’s face it, a stressful year. And what Susan and I realized is all the tools that we’ve developed and utilized around conflict apply directly to uncertainty, which is what we’re living in now.


Susan: In this podcast we have tools; concept and interviews that will help you cope with the stress and uncertainty of conflict, of Covid, of social justice issues and, yes, even politics. We hope you’ll walk away from this episode with some fresh ideas that change your day, your week and even your life.


CrisMarie: Today we’re going to talk to a very special guest, Barbara Gallen. She’s been a client of mine, a peer of mine. And she is a magic maker when it comes to non-profits. She has spent a big part of her career helping non-profits turnaround and become profitable in the sense of helping their people and being stable, not profitable because it’s non-profit.


Susan: But the thing about her is she also recognizes. I think that’s one of the biggest challenges of a non-profit board is, yeah, it’s not about profit but you still are running a business.


CrisMarie: Without money there is no mission.


Susan: Exactly. And you have, so you know, this episode is really for that executive director who has the very tiny staff but is doing some huge mission. And is really maybe even dealing with burnout which is another podcast we’ll be doing soon, and struggling.

Or for board members who are sort of – they’re either wanting the free lunch or they’re there trying for their cause that’s part of the mission. But don’t realize, wait a minute, we’ve got this whole business we have to run. And these are, you know, non-profits are beautiful organizations but sometimes they can be painfully difficult on the inside because there is that balancing act.


CrisMarie: And the environment is changing now. So stay tuned. I think it’s a great show. Enjoy.

CrisMarie: Today we have a very special guest on the podcast, Barbara Gallen. And she is the Principal of Inspired Action Coaching and Consulting, a firm that works with individuals, leaders and teams, especially in non-profits, going through phases of transition and growth. She’s spent more than 20 years leading, and training, and advocating for non-profits and small businesses. She’s raised a lot of money and marched in Washington a few times. She’s a mother, a grandmother, a sister, a friend and a mentor.


She’s also a Martha Beck Institute trained life coach. In addition to coaching and consulting she’s served on the boards of numerous non-profit organizations. She’s also been the Chief Development Officer for numerous charitable and service organizations. A native of Philadelphia, she now lives in Lancaster, the garden spot of Pennsylvania. Welcome, Barbara.


Barbara: Thank you. Thank you, I’m excited to be with you.


CrisMarie: Did you want to say something, Susan?


Susan: No, you go right ahead.


CrisMarie: When we were chatting about the possibility of you being on our podcast I was just enamored with how much knowledge you have about non-profits and how much support you can give struggling non-profits to help them really stabilize, get the finances in order, get the team and the leadership moving forward. And so I thought it’s a must to have you on our podcast.


Barbara: Thank you. I’m really, really happy to be here, and especially at this time when things are changing. And it’s exciting and a little scary but still.


CrisMarie: Yes, absolutely. Well, go ahead.


Susan: Yeah. Tell us a little bit about what some of the significant challenges that are happening right now in non-profits, and in various probably, service organizations as well, so yeah, give us a…


CrisMarie: A lay of the land.


Susan: Yes.


Barbara: Well, it’s almost becoming cliché to say that the pandemic and other changes in the world in fact are creating this opportunity for the community benefit sector. And in different countries that’s different. In the US it’s largely non-profits and B corporations. That landscape has really changed I think, forever. And as those old patterns are swept away then we have an opportunity to create something new, and truly something more thriving and more sustainable for our citizens.


Susan: Can you kind of talk a little bit about what patterns you see changing and what, yeah, because, and you know?


CrisMarie: Because we’re not always…


Susan: [Crosstalk].


CrisMarie: Yeah, we’re not always in the non-profit world so you might have to be a little bit more specific so we can try.


Barbara: Yeah, exactly. For example I think non-profits sort of have their lean. Here’s what we do. Here’s who we do it for. Here’s our structure. We have a few founders, or heavy hitters, or people who have been in a leadership role rather narrow. Some non-profits have been hanging on by a thread. It’s almost a point of pride, how well we suffer. So early part of the year plans are in place and then the spring comes and we do our fundraisers, and the gala, and the golf tournament and the whatever.


And then over the summer we’re processing things for the year end and then the year end comes and we send out our letter. You see what I’m seeing, blah, blah, blah. We do the same things. We do them in the same ways. We have maybe a handful of people who help us execute this. Much of that has gone away and many organizations really are having trouble hanging on.


CrisMarie: Yeah. Well, they can’t even do their fundraisers like the golf tournament, or the auctions, yeah.


Barbara: Exactly. But what I saw during the pandemic when we were really pretty much locked down, different organizations, one was a housing provider, a provider that provides housing for folks with developmental disabilities and another organization that had a day program. And the day program couldn’t meet so they were giving lunches out in the parking lot to the people who would always come to their day program. It gave a little bit of socialization, and food, which people were relying on.


Well, the folks in the housing organization started to bring their people over in a bus, not that they needed food but it gave them a little social. Okay, new ways of thinking about things, new ways to think about collaboration. Who can we collaborate with and how can we do that collaboration? That’s one of the pillars I think that’s going to change.


Susan: I can imagine.


Barbara: The other pieces, leadership, well, we do a lot of talking about, board development and let’s involve our volunteers and our leadership volunteers. And maybe a little more lip service in that regard than actuality. But now it’s absolutely essential. You need a thriving robust group of leaders that are carrying the water, not just a handful of staff who are probably overworked and underpaid.


CrisMarie: You know, Barbara, just even that alone, I have a couple of friends who are in non-profits and that is a real – it seems like a typical thing is that it’s the staff, a little tiny staff that’s trying to do everything and they get burned out and blamed by the board because the board’s not really involved. I mean is that…


Barbara: Exactly. And the boards aren’t taking ownership generally, not always. Good healthy organizations that have, well, capacity, they have health, they have stability, the board is involved. But there has to be a clear partnership between the staff and the board. And it’s one of the things I try to help every organization I work with. I try to help them strengthen that because that is the secret source. That’s the secret, make that partnership work.


Susan: It seems like just from my own experience of being on a couple of non-profit boards that often the role in a non-profit board is primarily to either give money, or be the figurehead that shows up for a fundraiser, or make a fundraiser happen. And often not so much, as a matter of fact my experience, it was often that the people didn’t particularly like the board to be too staffed, and like the board to be too managing their way they do business. And I don’t know much different than say a for profit board where basically it’s a whole different design.


So I wonder about that, I would imagine that is significantly changing with the current landscape.


CrisMarie: Can you say answer that or talk about that, Barbara?


Barbara: If it doesn’t change, organizations aren’t going to make it. And they’re not all going to make it. I hate to be the grim reaper here but it’s changed for good. Would you really bring someone – on a corporate board you would never bring someone on a corporate board that had skills, and knowledge, and experience and not use that. I mean money, yes, we need, non-profits need money, it’s not all they need. They need buy in, they need advocacy. They need people who know them well and can talk about the organization to others.


Those pieces which have been maybe marginal in a lot of organizations, they can’t be marginal anymore.


CrisMarie: Can you talk about, because I think that secret source, because I know one friend of ours, her board is falling apart, maybe there is a few people and they’ve all got busy lives. And so there’s two staff and maybe three or four board. And how do you work with that secret source of the board and the staff to make it thriving as opposed to pulling teeth sort of thing?


Barbara: So one way in which I think the non-profit is different from – well, family businesses are ones I have more experience with. But smaller businesses, we have, there’s a couple of people on our ‘board’ who we have to have for legal reasons. And it’s very lean and there’s not too many people that fit into that structure. But I think that non-profit structures have to have circles of people who are committed to some part of this mission. Maybe it’s an organization, like the YWCA, they tend to have housing as a part of their mission.


So there’s a group that looks at the property, takes care of the property, advises on how – that circle can include people from the board as well as people from the community. Now you have more folks knowing what you’re doing and how you’re doing it. How do you handle communications, social media? Do you have teams of people who are plugged in, in a very specific way that you are feeding them info and they’re putting it out in their Instagram, and in their Facebook, and on Twitter, and LinkedIn? Now you are really covering the waterfront.


A single staff member and you’re lucky if you have a marketing director, could never do all of that. But that person can be the cheerleader for a team of volunteers and invested folks who can get the word out there. Or you could call them committees. That’s fine. But they really are circles of people who have bought in to not only giving money, that’s such an old model. I picture the ladies with pearls on, you go and visit. I’ve been doing this a long time, so people were still wearing pearls.


CrisMarie: They like wearing pearls.


Barbara: Visit, write you a check and thank you and that’s it, we send you a letter. No, younger folks, they want their hands on it. They’re not afraid to get their hands dirty. [inaudible] had to be dirty. But they’re willing to roll up their sleeves. And in fact when folks volunteer and are engaged and invested in some aspect of this work, they’re going to give a whole lot more, not only their time but their money.


CrisMarie: So I really like this idea of circles of people and really leveraging the board members to kind of – it sounds like the board members are leading those circles, engaging more volunteers and community. And then how do they funnel into the staff? How does…


Barbara: Exactly.


CrisMarie: Yeah. Well, can you talk about how those linkages are made between?


Barbara: Yes. So again here’s where the team comes in. So the executive director, or the CEO, whatever that position is called, sometimes they’re board members, sometimes they’re not. But they staff the board. They’re the link from the board to the other staff. Some key staff need to be at board meetings, they need to be – like the development director needs to work with the board member development committee chair and they’re a team.


And they’re helping this whole structure of I’m a part of the gala committee, and I’m a part of the golf committee, and I’m part of the major gifts committee. We go out and just talk with people about the major things we’re doing. That’s where the staff can plug in and be partners in a significant way with the board. If the staff is like they’re in another room, you end up with something I’ve heard described as double headed management. So the staff is over here and the board is over here. And it’s not a good formula for collaboration or integration.


CrisMarie: Right, I agree, yeah.


Susan: I was thinking I know, again, I’m just going to speak to a little bit of my own experience with this at different times. And one of the things that I found was a challenge sometimes being on a board was a non-profit usually exists because it has a service that is considered highly valued. It’s not necessarily a business model. And as a matter of fact sometimes there is some tension between what that non-profit needs to do to keep itself financially responsible, and also provide the service that usually the staff is very loyal to.


And it seems to be a tension point that can come up sometimes between board members, staff and volunteers even. I’m just thinking about when we worked with a humane…


CrisMarie: Humane Society.


Susan: Yes. And how do you support that type of situation? How can you help a group kind of navigate through that conflict? Because I think it is a conflict point.


Barbara: Yeah. It doesn’t have to be a conflict, although it can be and it often is. It can be a point of tension that’s a good tension, keeps it in balance.


Susan: You need to remember we think of conflict as actually a healthy thing.


Barbara: That’s right, you do. You do. And I love bringing your concept of that into these conversations. In fact I’ve started quoting you both because it’s true. It’s the opportunity. Here’s what I say to folks who are like, “But people don’t understand, we have to save the puppies”, or whatever. You know what? No money, no mission. If the money’s gone or mismanaged, and I don’t mean in some fraudulent way but it’s just not paid attention to sufficiently. Your mission’s not happening, so let’s understand that. Let’s operate from that perspective.


Early in my career in development I took sales training, because the thing that’s so excellent about sales training is the sort of just do it. We can plan, and think, and we can circle the drain forever. It’s like just ask the question, just ask for the gift. And learn how to step up. There’s prep but then there’s do. At the same time there’s got to be the – we have to take in not only the expertise and the wisdom of the people we recruit to the board, but frankly, also the people we serve. And I think that has been largely left out of the equation most of the time.


CrisMarie: Yeah, say more Barbara about how to engage the people that the non-profit serves.


Barbara: Yeah. So when we start thinking about the gifts that everyone can bring and start valuing them in a partnership way. So maybe you’re Mrs. big bucks and you can put in a good bit of money. Excellent. But you over here are Ms. experienced in whatever area, professional practice. Okay, we need what you have. But who knows better what the experience is of the people who are served than the people who are served? And so they need to be a part of that equation and not patronized, but valued for that gift that they are bringing.


Now we have a round circle of real input that’s not just revolving around money.


CrisMarie: I love that. You’re including, it sounds like the circles you’re including the board, volunteers, the people being served and the staff.


Barbara: Exactly. And CrisMarie you know that I love the work of Lynne Twist and her book The Soul of Money. And she talks a lot about that, about the partnership, and the collaboration, and truly integrating that, not paying lip service to integrating it, but actually integrating it is such a strength, it’s as valuable as money.


CrisMarie: Right. So I’m just going to kind of summarize the pieces that I’m hearing thus far. One, the collaboration needs to start happening in a very different way, non-profits need to kind of mix lanes, get out of their lanes and see how they can collaborate together. And two, to build these healthy circles of people to support the mission, people that are excited about the mission or being served, whether that’s board members, volunteers, people.


And even in the fundraising aspect you’ve got to get over planning and twiddling your thumbs, you actually just have to keep making the ask as many times.


Barbara: And keep doing it. Keep doing it.


CrisMarie: Because the no money, no mission, I think that’s very stark reality, you have to ask for the money.


Susan: Maybe it’s just money, no mission too. I mean you can have both, it goes both directions.


Barbara: Exactly. If it’s become we’re all about a huge endowment, well you know what? What are you doing with that money? How is that serving the mission? And it can feel secure perhaps, but secure for what end?


CrisMarie: Yeah, exactly.


Susan: Yeah. I was thinking about that, I mean this may be a whole different track. But I know when I work sometimes, we worked with insurance companies. Now, there are some insurance companies that are non-profit, which was always so striking to me that they were considered a non-profit, because that’s what…


CrisMarie: They had huge coffers.


Susan: They had huge coffers I mean, and you kind of wondered, how is this a non-profit? Because it is, I mean the same thing can happen in big universities. I mean [inaudible], and they are considered non-profits but it’s like that – those are some of the examples I think of where you have huge coffers of money and exactly what is this mission?


Barbara: Exactly. I mean we won’t name names but there are some well known large universities that literally they don’t have to charge any student to attend there, their endowments are so large. Now you have to go, wow, yeah, that swung the other way didn’t it? And generally not the problem that most non-profits have, but.


Susan: No, not the type of non-profits that we’re really talking about because that’s a whole different. But I think it does sort of give it a – well, I won’t say bad rap, a different rap when you kind of realize why this is, you know.


Barbara: Yes. Well, you can see the two extremes.


CrisMarie: Now, Barbara when you work with non-profits, I think you have a different approach. One, you’ve often come in and helped them turn around their funding piece, tell me where I’m wrong and I’ll say the whole question. But you also really like to work with – is it the executive director of the board and develop the leadership and the teamwork? So say more about how you approach when you’re helping a struggling non-profit.


Barbara: So I almost always get the call, “We need money.” That’s almost always the call. And I like to have an initial literally couple of hours with them before I think they’re a good fit for me and that I’m a good fit for them. And talk with the exec and then talk with the board members, at least a few of them. And so often the presenting problem is money, but that is a symptom of what’s really not in place. Sometimes it’s just the natural evolution.


And a young non-profit, maybe that’s between six and ten years old, they’re going to have a certain growing up time to where the founder perhaps, and a handful of the initial group that wanted this done, whatever this is. Now we want to take it to the next level. We’ve reached a certain point with that structure, now we need to move it to the next level. And it’s just a natural evolution.


But that next level becomes will the founder really and truly allow for the delegation of true authority responsibility and accountability that they don’t have their hands on? We call that founder syndrome. It’s like this is my baby, and I can’t let it. But it will not grow then. And you’re either growing or you’re dying, you can’t just stay there. And sometimes I need to do like a retreat with the board to see if everybody’s on the same page. And sometimes they’re not.


There’s a group, I won’t name names again, but that I’ve been talking with just recently. And it’s 10 or 12 passionately committed people, this is good stuff. But they each have something, some part of the mission that they’re passionate about. Now, that’s okay but now they’ve got to grow that into okay, what is the overarching theme here? We can’t go in 10 different directions. Something has to be the lynchpin for all of that. So retreat of some kind with the board. What would success really look like?


Let’s dream a bit here. And then bring in the kind of structure that they need. It may be they have parts of that structure in place. Great, we’ll build on that. Maybe they don’t have the infrastructure. Maybe they don’t have computerization, or databases, or here’s my database, it’s handwritten literally, handwritten. Or it’s in an Excel spreadsheet which you can do virtually nothing with. So sometimes they need infrastructure. Here’s something else that I think non-profits, and this goes not just to non-profits, but to the community at large.


If a non-profit spends more than 2% or 1% on, we call it overhead, to produce money for this mission we think that that’s how it should be. But that is scarcity thinking. We aren’t going to get the best and the brightest, we’re going to get what’s left if we can’t compete with salaries. We’re not going to get that expertise, those leaders to come in and in the end will have way more for the mission, but to keep it at such a scarcity based mindset of yeah, you can only spend just a teensy little bit in order to make this amazing thing happen. Business would not think in those terms.


CrisMarie: No, you’re right, I agree, yeah.


Barbara: And we have to stop the non-profit sector from thinking in those terms because it’s why we have this churn, churn, churn of staff. We bring people in. We don’t have the tools that they need. It’s like musical chairs, people are at this organization and oh my goodness, well, I think I’ll go over there. That grass looks greener over there. And people are just moving around and it does not serve the missions, it doesn’t serve the community, it doesn’t serve anything for that to keep happening.


CrisMarie: So non-profits need to invest in their staff, spend more money and the tools, whatever’s going to work?


Barbara: Absolutely. And their donors have to get it because I’ve seen large donors say, “Oh no, they spend way too much money.” I worked for the American Red Cross and I’m not here to defend them. But you need expertise in the leadership. There’s a hurricane and you better be able to build a tent city overnight. That’s not somebody’s retired uncle doing it. That’s an expert that has to be able to do that.


CrisMarie: Could you just share that story, Barbara, when you were working with Red Cross and their mission and how clear it is when there’s a – I just thought that was pretty – it’s a neat story about the Red Cross, how clear they are.


Barbara: Yeah. I mean when I was working for them, and I think this is a story I told you CrisMarie, when there was a disaster called it would go out over all the computer system, we were all plugged in, all the Red Cross’ in the US. And when that alarm came across you literally put down your pencil or your pen, or whatever you were doing, and you turned. You turned to disaster mode. There’s no organization as uniformly structured as the Red Cross, except the US military. That’s the only organization that has more structure and more ability to instantly respond.


CrisMarie: I just felt that was so powerful. And you think how many other non-profits struggle just getting people’s attention in their circle. But to have that level of clarity, like, “Okay, what do we need to do next?”


Barbara: That’s right, and the protocols are there.


Susan: Yeah. Disasters tend to be good rallying cries. I mean people get usually life or death; it’s something that people – you’re pretty clear.


CrisMarie: We’ve got to save people, yeah.


Susan: So think about even fundraising events, when thinking about the hurricane. It’s like people will mobilize for something that is that dramatic. And sometimes that’s the same energy you need for almost any non-profit I imagine, is you need that rally cry that will help people get it.


Barbara: Exactly. So I joined the Red Cross Chapter here locally in central Pennsylvania as the Development Director. And it was two or three days after Katrina hit. And money was pouring in like a fire hose, which was great. But there are a small little handful of people who are processing these checks. We ended up with three million dollars coming in, in maybe 10 days.


Now we had a different problem. But what did we do? We reached out to the credit unions and some of the banks who were willing to deploy people as Red Cross volunteers and they processed the checks so that they could be deposited, people’s money could be deployed immediately. And there’s more than one – you don’t necessarily have to get into a truck and [crosstalk] the tents.


CrisMarie: Hey, Barbara, just in terms – so we’ve got the collaboration, the circles of people invest in this task, get out of that scarcity mentality, even having a powerful rally cry, an emotional rally cry that people can get behind. Thinking of the struggling executive director out there, what are some final words that you would leave them to even start this process of creating a healthy board, creating these circles, collaborating differently?


Barbara: Well, Rome wasn’t built in a day and start with who on your board are your go to’s, that get this and can help you begin to transform the culture and say, “Yes, I will take responsibility for board development, job descriptions, board members who come on this board are going to know exactly what the expectation is. And then we’re going to help board members, every month we’re going to help them know more and more deeply about our organization. I’m going to talk to a board member who isn’t afraid of rallying people to the cause by giving money.”


Some people would rather be shot than ask for money. I get that. The firing squad seems more friendly. But you need someone who can say, “This is the lifeblood that we have to keep circulating to keep our mission going.” So find those few board members who you know you can rely on and start the process of building the circles, because nothing succeeds like success.


So when a circle begins to show some real progress and real results others are like, “Oh, well, let’s do that over here in my area which is the property, or my area which is the programs”, whatever, whatever people have come on because they’re excited about. And then frankly, if there’s dead wood, people who want to show up because you give them a box lunch or whatever, you know what? Thank you very much but we’re moving in a different way and sometimes that’s a part of it as well.


CrisMarie: That’s great. I mean energizing your board by picking people that are excited about the mission, and willing to kind of rally others. So building the circles and it sounds like for that struggling executive director, kind of spreading the workload so that they’re not the only one kind of pushing the rock up the hill.


Barbara: Exactly. And you know what? That executive director, and CrisMarie, we know this from our training, you’ve got to be living it to give it. So if you have some issues and fears, and scarcity thinking, you’ve got to work through that too.


CrisMarie: Yeah, I think that’s great, great feedback. And you actually have a little eBook for people that we will put…


Barbara: I do.


CrisMarie: Okay. Just say a nugget about what they’ll get in this eBook and we’ll put a link to it in the show notes.


Barbara: Yeah. So the title is An Effective Board Staff Partnership and Your Secret Weapon for Fundraising Success. And it’s somewhat of a step-by-step guide to, okay, how do you set the expectation for board members when they come on? And you need them to work. You need them on a committee. You need them to come to events. You need them to be able to speak about the organization, be knowledgeable.

And you need them to be partners. They’re not the boss. They are the boss but you’re not looking for them to tell you what to do. You’re looking for them to join you as a staff member.


Susan: Cool.


CrisMarie: I love it. That’s great, Barbara. Good, what a good resource. You are just I think a gem and I would encourage any non-profit, whether you’re – listeners, if you’re on a board of a non-profit that’s struggling or you’re an executive director that needs help. I encourage you to reach out to Barbara Gallen and have a conversation. And you’ll learn something in the conversation and see if it’s a fit. And if it’s not, carry on, but I think Barbara you are a non-profit angel or a small business, family business angel to help them out there.


Barbara: Well, thank you. And I would love it. I would love to hear from your podcast listeners who think this sounds like a fit for them.


CrisMarie: Yeah, exactly, okay folks, so reach out and at the very least you can download that eBook and get lots of free information and help there, thank you Barbara for being on our show.


Barbara: Thank you, great to talk with you.

CrisMarie: Well, we hope you enjoyed that show with Barbara. She is an amazing resource.


Susan: I was really struck. I love the story about the Red Cross and just what she learned. But I mean what a powerful organization. And then also you do have to deal with the fact that you need to be able to sell, you need to be able to make money, you need to be, I mean all things.


CrisMarie: Without money there is no mission.


Susan: Yeah, and sometimes that can be challenging when you join something because of the heartbeats and you want to be able to provide it. And you still though have that challenge.


CrisMarie: Yeah. So if you’re on the board of a non-profit or in a non-profit that’s struggling, I really recommend that you reach out to Barbara. I think she’s a great resource. She is affordable and can help turn around a non-profit to make it run and go, so take care.


Thank you for listening to the Beauty of Conflict podcast. We know conflict, stress, and uncertainty can be hard to navigate. So, if you want more support you can check out our other resources. We have two books on Amazon.


Susan: Our business book is The Beauty of Conflict: Harnessing Your Team’s Competitive Advantage. Or our couples’ book, The Beauty of Conflict for Couples. We also have an e-book, How to Discuss Difficult Topics. We’ll put the links in the show notes to make it easy for you.


CrisMarie: Also, if you need help with your team at work, we regularly conduct team sessions both live and virtually. If you’d like us to speak at your next event or if you want coaching, Susan and I each coach business leaders, individuals, and couples, you can reach us at thrive@thriveinc.com, that’s thrive@thriveinc.com.


Susan: If you’ve enjoyed today’s podcast please take 30 seconds to give us as iTunes review. It helps get this show out to others. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a peaceful, productive, and beautiful day. Take care of yourself and we hope you’ll join us again for another episode.

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CrisMarie Campbell and Susan Clarke


Coaches, Business Consultants, Speakers and Authors of The Beauty of Conflict

CrisMarie and Susan work leaders and teams, couples in business, and professional women.

They help turnaround dysfunctional teams into high performing, cohesive teams who trust each other, deal with differences directly, and have clarity and alignment on their business strategy so they create great results.

Connect with CrisMarie and Susan on LinkedIn.

Watch their TEDx Talk: Conflict – Use It, Don’t Defuse It!

Order their new book The Beauty of Conflict for Couples: Igniting Passion, Intimacy, and Connection in Your Relationship.


Download the eBook, How to Talk About Difficult Topics, today!


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