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The Power of Working on Communication from the Beginning with Rob and Jo-Ann Kevala

Updated: Nov 18, 2019

The Beauty of Conflict Podcast Cover

CrisMarie: Welcome to the Beauty of Conflict, a podcast about how to deal with conflict at work, at home, and everywhere else in your life. I'm CrisMarie.

Susan: And I'm Susan. We run a company called Thrive, and we specialize in conflict resolution, communication, and building strong, thriving teams and relationships. Conflict shows up in our lives in so many ways. Most people unfortunately, are not very good at handling conflict. Most people have never been taught the right tools for dealing with conflict and then it leads to unnecessary friction, arguments, passive aggressive emails, tears, hurtful comments, stuckness, all kinds of things we don't want. We're on a mission to change all of that.

Susan: We spent the last 20 years teaching our clients how to handle conflict in a whole new way.

CrisMarie: We're here to show you that conflict doesn't have to be scary and overwhelming. With the right tools, you can turn a moment of conflict into a moment of reinvention. Conflict can pave the way into a beautiful new system at work, a new way of leading your team, a new way of parenting, a new chapter of your marriage where you feel more connected than ever before. Conflict can lead to beautiful things.

We're delighted to have Rob and Jo-Ann Kevala on the show today. They are a couple who attended our Couples Alive workshop that we co-designed and lead up at the Haven in British Columbia.

CrisMarie: Welcome to the show Jo-Ann and Rob.

Jo-Ann: Thanks, thanks for having us.

Rob: Thank you.

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CrisMarie: We are so excited that you're here and just for our listening audience, you two are in a relationship.

Rob: We are.

CrisMarie: But there would also be ... Still, it's still happening. Why don't you first tell us a little bit about you individually, like what you do, your backgrounds, and then about your relationship, like where you live, how long you've been together, do you own a home together, pets, kids, things like that.

Rob: A bit of my history is, I was 34 years in the military. I left there and ever since, I'd be running a neurofeedback institute. I was married three times before. I try and say I've only married twice before, but the truth is I married three times before. At the time when I was looking for somebody, I realized that I wanted a partner in life. I wanted somebody that was my equal and that didn't need me. I was looking for somebody who didn't need somebody but wanted to be in a relationship. That's what I definitely found.

CrisMarie: Good.

Jo-Ann: For me, I mean I had been married twice before. I was sort of a single parent and co-parented with my kids, two boys' dad. But had been a single parent from when they were quite young. I'd had another marriage that had ended quite badly. So I was in a state of, not sure about relationships when I met Rob. But really liked who he was, and also was looking for someone. I had a history of running over my relationships, being in charge and not necessarily ...

I would sort of cut and run at the end of them, rather than work through problems. So I also knew that I didn't want to go through another relationship with someone where I was the boss and I was in charge, and I wanted more of an equal type relationship.

CrisMarie: That's neat. I mean, I guess Rob, you did pull in somebody that you weren't going to have to take care of. Actually the other way, she might take too much charge.

Rob: I think both our favorite sayings is, "You're not the boss of me."

Jo-Ann: Yeah. That's probably what mattered most in the earlier stages of our relationship.

Susan: How long have you two been together?

Jo-Ann: 12 years.

Rob: 12 years. Yeah.

Jo-Ann: Yeah.

Susan: Wow. Good. You even gave the same answer at the same time. Sometimes that doesn't happen.

Jo-Ann: He's attached me on his arm.

Rob: It's not like I forgot.

CrisMarie: Jo-Ann, you have kids from your previous marriage?

Jo-Ann: Yeah.

CrisMarie: And Rob, you do as well?

Rob: Well, that's the shocking thing is, we both have two boys and not only that, but each of us have a boy named Matthew James.

CrisMarie: Oh, how funny.

Susan: Oh wow.

CrisMarie: I had no idea.

Susan: I didn't know that. That's amazing.

Jo-Ann: Yeah when we started living together, we had, I think four teenagers between ages. It was 13 and-

Rob: Mine just finished. Mine were 20 and 22, and yours were just stepping in. So I got to do two teenage years with four boys, so ...

CrisMarie: Wow, that's a lot of testosterone in the house.

Jo-Ann: Oh yeah.

Rob: Even our male dogs.

Susan: That's right, you have two dogs in addition, they're still there huh?

Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's ran a male dominated testosterone household for quite a while. Wait did I just say she's ran it?

Jo-Ann: Yeah.

CrisMarie: Now when you first met, what was something that really attracted you to each other? Like was it, you know, Rob's eyes or Jo-Ann's sense of humor or kindness or something completely different?

Jo-Ann: We met at hot yoga and so we actually met at a yoga class where we hadn't talked quite a lot, so we mostly saw each other half naked across a room.

Rob: Yeah, not wearing much clothes.

Jo-Ann: We both have very different stories about each other. My story of him was, he was a sort of, you know, zen kind of mellow guy and ...

Rob: Then my story was that she was a Martha Stewart that I wanted to corrupt.

Susan: A Martha Stewart?

CrisMarie: Oh I love it. I love how you actually recognize what you were projecting onto each other. And how long did you believe those stories about each other or did you decide to check it out or what happened?

Jo-Ann: Well I think we learned pretty quickly that neither of us ... I mean, we were intrigued with each other, but neither of us were the person that would imagine the other was.

Rob: We talked a little bit to each other for over a year, but we were both in relationships. And so it was just a, you know, conversation for about five or 10 minutes before class. And then one day I noticed ... She's the only person in yoga who walked in here with rings and watch on, and she'd put this little pile in front of her, her rings and watch. And one day I noticed that the watch came off and there was no rings. So, I chatted to her and I said I noticed that. And it turned out again, something odd that both our respective spouses left our individual homes at the same month, months before.

CrisMarie: Oh my goodness! I can't believe that.

Rob: So we chatted and ...

Jo-Ann: Yeah, we ended up tempting dating but we were both busy and then I was heading off to a program for a couple of months.

Rob: Well we actually did date three times.

Jo-Ann: Yeah. Okay, cool. I was still dating other people though.

Rob: Yeah, we actually kissed and then she left for a month core long course. Yeah, which was excellent because it turned out we ... It was a course called phase three at the Haven and because of being away, we had to get acquainted the old fashioned way of talking and phoning, and no physical contact until she had a little one-day break and then we were like schoolchildren on a bench in a park.

CrisMarie: Well what finally sealed the deal that you decided, "Hey, we're going to make a go at this, third or fourth time?"

Jo-Ann: Well, it's interesting because we started a relationship and because I was doing a lot of personal work and I decided that my pattern in relationships had been to sort of keep a lot of secrets and only share portions of myself that I thought would be attractive to the other person. This wasn't particularly working very well for me. So I thought I would just kind of bare my soul and tell ...

I remember writing him a long email and telling him, because I'd had a history of some affairs in my previous relationship and other things that I wasn't particularly proud of, but I was tired of hiding that part of myself and not owning it. So I kind of wrote him a letter that said, you know, bared my soul. And then I got back to this one word email that said, "Oh."

CrisMarie: Oh my gosh, really? That's all you said, Rob?

Rob: But, what happened is, I was about to write this long email back and when I pressed, oh, I pressed send instead of enter. So I did follow right away with a ...

Jo-Ann: Phone call.

Rob: ... a phone call.

Jo-Ann: But there was a feeling like, well I guess that experiment didn't work.

Rob: And as I think she did that, I had no idea what she was, you know, she was on this journey of, you know, honesty in that. But because she did that, I felt that gave me a license to be honest myself. And so we just started learning each other's history.

Jo-Ann: And I've done a lot of personal work and I said to him, "If you're going to be in a relationship with me, you're going to need skills." Good communication skills.

Rob: But, but what happened is, she at that time, I remember her saying to me, "Well, you know I'd really like to get to know each other and maybe remain friends, you know," and I had to be honest and say, "You know, at this point in my life, I've done that. I have a lot of friends. I'm actually looking for a life partner. I'm not looking for another friend." I think that's the first time anybody's ever ...

Jo-Ann: Yeah, I was kind of looking for friends with benefits and Rob said, "Yeah, no I have enough friends."

So that actually was a turning point because he had really clear ideas about what he wanted and was really good about communicating it. And that was attractive to me because I'd had a history of sort of kind of getting my way in relationships and so the fact that he would take a stand with me was attractive. I don't know if it's still attractive, it's probably why we're still together and our relationship is quite strong is that, you know, we started doing the Couples Alive programs and others.

And what we learned was, you know, how to communicate, how to set clear boundaries with each other. And I think because we did some of those programs early in our relationship, when we did get into trouble, we actually had the skills to work through it.

Rob: Right at the beginning. Yeah, right during our first trip to Mexico, you know, together. Early within a-

Jo-Ann: We were in romance for probably about three or four months and then we were in heavy, heavy conflict. And sort of a power struggle and learned that, you know, we needed to communicate to get through that.

Rob: I needed to use my skills that I learned and communication or it just wasn't going to work. We were on an isolated beach and what was going in through your mind when I ...

Jo-Ann: I was figuring out how I was going to get a cab to the airport and leave you in Mexico.

Rob: And I was thinking, well, I guess I'm going to stay and enjoy my holiday anyway. But we're driving back not talking at all.

Jo-Ann: For probably two hours.

Rob: Until I finally ... Practically praying the whole time going, what have I learned? What do

I do? What can I say? Communication, communication. Finally I said, "If you don't mind, I'd really like to sit down and talk about what just happened." And I think that's what ...

Jo-Ann: Yeah, I think you said, "I'd like to check something out with you."

Rob: Yeah.

Jo-Ann: And I'm like, "Oh well, I've got a couple of minutes before I get the plane."

CrisMarie: So walk me back a bit because I'm a probably a little confused. It sounds like you guys went on this trip, you were in Mexico together and something occurred that made you each have an experience of, "That's it. We're done. This isn't gonna work." You were going to stay on vacation, Rob, and Jo-Ann, you had decided, "That's it, I'm flying back home." But was it a particular fight you had or was it just, "Wow, we're ...

Jo-Ann: I think it was this difficult defense pattern that we get into. It's like, you know, I think he said something.

Rob: I said, "Oh yeah you're always raging," or something like that.

Jo-Ann: Yeah. And I felt dismissed and it's a similar pattern that we still do, but it escalated. In the early stages of our relationship, it would escalate pretty fast where I felt dismissed and he felt attacked.

Rob: Yeah.

Jo-Ann: I grew up in a family where we could communicate and fighting was quite a good thing. Like, you know, it's how you communicated and how you solved problems and so when I would say something, but he grew up where that just didn't happen. So the minute I would raise my voice or get excited about something, he would just want to dismiss me.

Rob: Shut down and, yeah.

Jo-Ann: And shut me down.

Rob: And so we literally drove like two hours we were literally on an isolated beach and we had to drive back. We were in the middle of nowhere and we went back to the Jeep not talking to each other because I remember saying, "Yeah, of course, you're right about everything." And I was mad and you were too. Unless one of us said something, I think we would've just carried on and packed our bags. And that was it. We were both taking our stand and neither one of us were moving.

CrisMarie: Well good job Rob, that you actually remembered what you learned in Couples Alive and we're willing to check out your story to start a dialogue which-

Jo-Ann: And he's been much more generous than me in the early stages of our relationship. I was pretty mean and ...

Rob: Yep, yep, thank you for noticing that.

CrisMarie: So you got through that and committed and were willing to kind of open, what comes up today, because Jo-Ann, I heard you say the same pattern happens, but what are the topics you tend to bump into or fight about or get into conflict and how do you ...

Jo-Ann: It's more of an interaction where I think we both have, you know, at a very core level, I need to be heard and he needs to be accepted. And so often we're in a place where often what happens is, I feel like I'm being dismissed by him or shut down, and he feels criticized so underneath most of our disagreements is that same sort of element. And once we kind of understood that, there's a little more levity. I think we have a lot of faith that we will get through that and recognize when we're both in a dependent place, we tend to have better ideas around how to sort of separate and take some time out or some techniques we've used to ...

Rob: Five, five, five.

Jo-Ann: Yeah like the, the one thing we learned in Couples Alive that we use quite a bit when we're in conflict is the five, five, five exercise, which is where one of us gets to talk for five minutes and the other has to listen and then the other person gets to talk and the other person listens and then we have five minutes to discuss. And that works really well for me because often I'm just feeling shut down or dismissed. And so by getting some time to actually express myself, I'm a lot more willing to listen as well. And so ...

Rob: And I think because we both have a history of being the dominant person in relationships and things always went our own way. So it was a real struggle to have that ability to let go of something and share the responsibility and be little bit more humble on what's going on and giving her her space.

Jo-Ann: And at the same time, not caving because I'm a strong person and he's a strong person. So I think with some of those tools, we have a lot more room for each of us to be ourselves.

CrisMarie: I would imagine that Jo-Ann, you know, when you were talking about for you, you can interpret that he's not listening to you or he's not interested in what you're saying. He's dismissing it. And I was thinking, and then you said you've come to have some faith that that's actually maybe not what's going on. And I'm imagining that at times you can check that out with him. Is this, you know, like right now I'm thinking you're not listening to me. Is that your intention or not? Or have you learned ways to kind of interrupt where the pattern even gets started by checking in with each other?

Jo-Ann: Yeah, I mean, I think that's when things are escalating, we will check in if we're still a dependent place. Just knowing to take some time out is something that we've learned works for us. It's still hard when we're in it. When we're in conflict it can still be hard to sort of settle down. So often for me, I need to take space.

Rob: And that's a tough lesson for me because ...

Jo-Ann: He loves to talk.

Rob: I want to talk about it. I want to deal with it then and there and be over. And that was a tough lesson for me to accept. Okay, we're not dismissing it, but we are pausing, taking time to have our own thoughts and we'll get back to this. And I think for me, the big part of that is when I'm going back into it, I've lost all that emotional charge so I can talk about it in a more intellectual and real manner.

CrisMarie: That's not uncommon for couples when there's an eruption that one wants space and the other is like, "No, no, no, we need to talk about it right now." And it's like pac-man, people chasing each other around the house trying to get this discussion happening. Jo-Ann, when you need space, do you set a time limit or let Rob know when you're going to come back or is it just open-ended and how do you manage that difference?

Jo-Ann: I think sometimes I do and I think sometimes he will give me space and then it tends to be individual. We'll negotiate it and depending on the level of it and because we've been together a while now, we also kind of know the timing of what time we need to calm down.

Rob: And usually I'll checkout with her. I'll give her time and then I sort of get a feeling and I'll go and check out with her, "Can we talk about this now?"

Jo-Ann: And sometimes I'll say, "No, not yet."

Rob: Yeah. Not yet. And other times we do. I think by the time I do that, I've lost the charge of it. And then I'm really digging into, during that space I'm thinking about what was my part in it, what was I doing, what was my agenda? And then I can go back to it and I can realize if I was ... My stance, my regular stance is know from the start so I can really think about it and see where I was coming from and if I'm being true to myself and sharing and caring for her at the same time.

CrisMarie: I really like Rob that you're, well, both of you recognizing because when we feel threatened our physiological response can be quite loud, like our heartbeat accelerates, our vision narrows, and our body is filling with cortisol and the stressful hormone. And it's good that you know what helps each of you settle down.

CrisMarie: And Rob, I love that you're considering what was my part in creating the situation because we find a lot of times when we're upset as human beings we tend to think it's all their fault. If only you would change, I would be better. I'd be okay. And so we tend to miss how am I actually participating in creating this experience? And so looking at your own agenda, and I imagine you might reveal that when you come back in dialogue.

Rob: Exactly, exactly. I think that one of the hardest parts for me too is because I grew up in a culture of yelling and screaming, and I immediately become defensive. And that's where I'll get defensive right away and even if she's not yelling, to me it's yelling. If she's standing up for herself, I'll take it as yelling and she'll go, "I'm not even raising my voice, but I am." So I know I have to ... Passive aggressive is the easiest thing to do. That was my stance before. It's just, I'd just walk away and I'd never come back. And I realized that was not working for me. So I knew I had to find a different way than doing that. It's not, you know, being in this relationship isn't the easiest relationship, but it's definitely the most rewarding I've ever had.

Jo-Ann: And my style tended to be very direct, but I tended to be with people who were quite passive. So, you know, direct worked. I got my way a lot of the time, but I didn't really feel completely seen or known by my partners. Whereas with Rob, there are times where he's like, "No, that doesn't work for me." And so, you know, when we were first in a relationship, that was like, I both liked it, but I didn't like it. Did not like it.

Rob: Yeah.

Jo-Ann: It's like not liking it. But I like how we are in a relationship in that, he shows up fully and I don't feel like I'm in charge all the time.

CrisMarie: Well it sounds like you have a commitment to each show up fully and hang in even though you might have to take breaks to feel seen and heard, but then come up with a path through that where it meets both of what you're needing. Tell me more about that or tell us about that.

Rob: Well, I think for me it's because knowing Jo-Ann, how she feels is being attacked or being dismissed is I have to make sure she understands or I let her know that I do hear her and I do hear what she was saying, and that's a huge part for her is to make sure that she knows that I heard her.

CrisMarie: Imagine you might use reflective listening. Tell me whether I'm wrong, Rob.

Rob: Exactly. Give back, tell her, "I heard what you said and what you told me is this," and I know over the time that that's what she needs is to know when she's heard. And I think when I'm in a defensive mode, I don't necessarily show that. I don't necessarily ... I'm just fighting back. So I don't necessarily let her know that I hear her or even ...

Jo-Ann: And when he's defended and feeling attacked, I also learned that I need to let him know that I actually care and I'm not going anywhere.

Rob: Yeah. That's ... Yeah.

Jo-Ann: He's afraid that I'm leaving, so that I might be taking a break, but I think now when we've had big fights, it's like I'm in this relationship, I'm not going anywhere and I'm not really happy with your behavior, or I don't like what's going on. But I'm willing to sit down and work through it.

Rob: I think that's a big thing is that security. For me, it's the security of knowing, when we get raid in the muck of a discussion and knowing that we're going to stay with us, we're not going to do that passive aggressive and walk away. We're staying in this and we're going to discuss this until we get out the other side.

CrisMarie: I think that's great. I know that sometimes you may need to say, "Look, I'm in it. I'm going to take a break for a while, it may even be a day or two, but I'm coming back." And that is, I think something that is really critical for couples to be able to at times what we call opt out. Take that break, go separate, do something different and then come back and see, hey, at this point, am I ready to show up here and be vulnerable and curious versus just stay in my defense. And if you can recognize that and own it, it's a big deal. And it sounds like you guys have created that for yourselves.

Rob: I think compromise is a huge ... I don't think I've ever had that in a relationship. I've learned to compromise and learned that it's not all about me.

Jo-Ann: Well I don't think really compromise because to me the word compromise means, sort of abandoning. I think we end up sort of co-creating-

Rob: Exactly.

Jo-Ann: ... new possibilities because we both are willing to stay open even in our disagreement. So I don't very often completely abandon. To me, compromise is kind of abandoning, but ...

Rob: And to me, compromise is both of us getting our way.

Jo-Ann: Yeah. And that often means a new solution.

Rob: Yeah, absolutely.

CrisMarie: Yeah we would tend to agree with the creation of a new solution because often in the vernacular, I guess my version of compromise is I have to give up half of me and you have to give up half of you so that we can be okay. And it doesn't sound like that's what you're defining it as Rob.

Jo-Ann: No, I think of it more as co-creating possibilities together because I don't give up half of me.

CrisMarie: No way.

Susan: It doesn't sound like either one of you do, which is a good thing, you know.

CrisMarie: You said Rob, you often feel criticized. So Jo-Ann, how do you address that issue? Like I appreciate Rob, you're saying, hey, when she feels dismissed I've got to come back and my commitment is to reflect back what I hear, what I'm hearing her say. How do you handle the belief?

Jo-Ann: Well, I think sometimes I remind him that I care about him and I think he often goes to ... I'm a bad person and I often ... It's like, no, I just don't like that behavior or that I care about you. So I try to remind him that I care about him and this doesn't mean he's a bad person. It means I'm not comfortable with this. You know, so what's happening.

CrisMarie: It sounds you cut it down to size.

Jo-Ann: Yeah, it's not a blanket, and he often, I think because his interpretation is often blanket and the reaction is I'm bad. And so it's like breaking it down into manageable chunks around, I'm just not happy with this behavior. I need to be able to express that and it doesn't mean you have to change it, but it does mean there's an impact for me.

CrisMarie: That's great.

Susan: Yeah, I get that. I mean I often ... I think Rob can kind of relate to what you're saying. I often could take something as ... That I've done it wrong and I have to really, when I go there, I tend to want to get defensive and fight about it and ... But when I can get to wait a minute, she just disagrees with what I'm doing. Or when she'll say to me, you know, I don't know if you're wrong or not, but I don't like it. That's very different and I can hear it that way if I, you know, it's very different when she says she doesn't like something. If I can get her to ...

Jo-Ann: I think that's what happens is trying ... I think when we're in that place is to just really get it personal around what it is for me. Not that he's bad or that he's, you know, a bad person. It's that, I'm pissing myself off with what's going on.

CrisMarie: Yes. I love it. That's great. Well, what would be your one piece of advice if for other couples out there who haven't necessarily walked in your shoes but are looking to have more connection and co-creation?

Susan: And have strong personalities?

CrisMarie: Yes, or don't want to give in in their relationship.

Jo-Ann: The Couples Alive program that you guys, you know, that has been a game changer for us. I think learning the skills when you don't need them is a time to learn them. I think a lot of people wait until their relationship's in trouble and then they're going for counseling or trying to do something then. And I really believe that for us, we've done the whole Couples Alive series and each time we go, one, it's a lot of fun. We've had a great weekend, or great couple of days experience, time out from day to day life to actually explore that and in a safe way.

So we got a lot of coaching and a lot of support for areas that were problems for us and got some creative ideas and solutions for trying things. And it felt a lot safer to be doing that in a group situation than waiting till you're in crisis and trying to do it with an individual.

Rob: I think the communication skills are the key to a relationship and having it right in the ... And the honesty and the respect of a relationship is huge. And that's what you guys talk about. And that's what it is for me is the respect and the communication. If we didn't have the tools from when we first started the relationship, we would not be here right now.

Susan: I really like what you're saying because I do think it's so easy. So often couples arrive and ask for support when they're in a crisis. And what, I appreciated about what I hear you guys saying is you came into your relationship right off the jump knowing, hey, we want to have these skills before the romance even in, it sounds like, which is great because it gave you a chance to practice with a lot of goodwill.

So that then at a point when you may have needed it, you could remember that and it sounds like it was pretty important to have you guys stay together.

Rob: Our first introduction to the Haven and courses was a little day long course that's no longer there. It's the introduction, it was the precursor and they were talking about how do you guys fight? How do you guys fight together? And at that time we looked at each other and go, "We don't, we've never ever fought." At that point, we've never had a fight yet.

Jo-Ann: We thought we never would.

Rob: We never would

CrisMarie: Oh of course not.

Susan: Oh of course not.

Rob: The skills are so good. What we've told, we have four boys and what we told all the

boys that their wedding gift from us is going to be a Couples Alive. That is their wedding gift from us, I told them.

CrisMarie: I love that. That's powerful.

Susan: Oh that's cool.

CrisMarie: That's neat. Now, we often spend a lot of time fixating on what's not right in a relationship or not working, but what's going on that's going well, something that you're excited about this year or really appreciate about each other? Just as a way of wrapping up to share with our listeners.

Jo-Ann: I love the life we've created and the family we've created together. And you know, so I think what's going really well is, we've created this wonderful life that we get to play together and have a rich family between our blended families. And I just really appreciate Rob's ... The role model that my kids, having followed me through a couple of failed marriages, I'm really excited that they get to see the kind of relationship that we've worked to build.

Rob: I think for me it's the ... I think the best part of the relationship with you is, watching our relationship mature and go through all the different stages. You know, you do go through the romance stages and you go through all the struggles, but right now, it's at a part where it's ... I want to call it a mature relationship with 12 years of a mature relationship with the respect and honesty and discussion is just amazing.

The talks we can have, the physical and emotional bond, to me, it's just amazing and there's no way I know I can talk to her about anything. I have total trust and faith in her and I love her wisdom. And actually, I just like hanging out with her.

Jo-Ann: Yeah, you're kind of my best friend.

Rob: Yeah I actually like being with her. For me, we're together not because we have to be, it's because we want to be.

CrisMarie: That's fabulous. And plus you've just gone through a big remodel and you're still saying all this, right?

Susan: Yeah.

Jo-Ann: Yeah, we've made it through a home renovation and happy.

Susan: Yes. That's amazing. That's a statement.

CrisMarie: Hey, well we have loved having you on this show and so we appreciate our connection in working with you and Couples Alive and all the connections that we've had with you.

Susan: Yes,.

CrisMarie: We hope you enjoyed that interview with Jo-Ann and Rob Kabbalah. That's just a taster for our podcast, which will be released in the middle of June. And if you're interested in Couples Alive that they talked about, Susan and I happen to be leading one the end of June, June 23rd through the 27th and it's a delightful way to build more intimacy and passion and a liveness in your couple.

Susan: And if you are not per se interested in the Couple's Alive at this time, but you happen to be a couple who has a unique way of dealing with conflict and are willing to be interviewed, we'd love to hear from you and we'd love to interview you for our-

CrisMarie: Show.

Susan: ... podcast. For our show. So reach out if you'd like to.

CrisMarie: Okay, take care.

Susan: Well, thank you for listening to The Beauty of Conflict podcast. If you're dealing with a difficult situation in your life or work, remember every conflict is a chance for you to be vulnerable and curious and find creative solutions that you hadn't considered before and make your situation even better. Beautiful breakthroughs can be born out of conflict. We've seen this happen thousands of times over the last 20 years and we know this is possible for everyone, including you. We're grateful you listened to this show and we're rooting for you.

CrisMarie: And if you enjoyed this show, please tell a few friends and or post a five star review on iTunes. Your review helps new listeners discover this show. More people listening to this show means less friction and arguing and suffering out in the world. So that's a great thing for everyone. Also, visit our website, thrive inc com. That's to read our articles, join our newsletter, buy our books and learn more about the services that we offer. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a peaceful, productive, and beautiful day.


CrisMarie Campbell and Susan Clarke

Coaches, Business Consultants, Speakers and Authors of The Beauty of Conflict

CrisMarie and Susan work leaders and teams, couples in business, and professional women.

They help turnaround dysfunctional teams into high performing, cohesive teams who trust each other, deal with differences directly, and have clarity and alignment on their business strategy so they create great results.

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