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Integrating The Beauty of Conflict in Life and Business with Evan Fein

The Beauty of Conflict Podcast Cover

CrisMarie: Welcome to The Beauty of Conflict, a podcast about how to deal with conflict at work, at home, and everywhere else in your life. I'm CrisMarie.

Susan: I'm Susan. We run a company called Thrive, and we specialize in conflict resolution, communication and building strong, thriving teams and relationships. Conflict shows up in our lives in so many ways. Most people, unfortunately, are not very good at handling conflict. Most people have never been taught the right tools for dealing with conflict. Then it leads to unnecessary friction, arguments, passive aggressive emails, tears, hurtful comments, stuckness, all kinds of things we don't want. We're on a mission to change all of that.

CrisMarie: We spent the last 20 years teaching our clients how to handle conflict in a whole new way. We're here to show you that conflict doesn't have to be scary and overwhelming. With the right tools, you can turn a moment of conflict into a moment of reinvention. Conflict can pave the way into a beautiful new system at work, a new way of leading your team, a new way of parenting, a new chapter of your marriage where you feel more connected than ever before. Conflict can lead to beautiful things.

CrisMarie: Hi, today we have Evan Fein, who is the current CFO at Chef. When we worked with Evan, he was the finance executive at a technology company called Impinj. We started working with the executive team 2008-ish, and worked with the team for about four or five years, coming in periodically to help the team. I want to just welcome you, Evan. We're so glad you're here.

Evan Fein: Good morning. Thank you. It is such a pleasure to be here. I have very fond memories of our time together and continue to maintain our relationship.

CrisMarie: Yes, it's for a while.

Susan: Yes. You were with Impinj when it went public as well too, right?

Evan Fein: I was, yes. In a remarkably long duration, I started at Impinj when I was 29 years old. It was October of 2000 and I had no kids, no gray hair, and a full head of hair. I stayed for 17 and a half years.

CrisMarie: Wow. ...

Evan Fein: Through ... I often say I led three IPOs at Impinj, because we filed an S-1 in 2011 and 2014, and decided not to proceed. Then I led a very successful IPO in July of 2016. Then after almost 2 years of being a public company and being at Impinj for 17 and a half years, I just felt so content and proud and grateful for everything that I was able to accomplish, and all the people I was able to work with, and I felt like it was time to do something new and different and refreshing. I didn't know what it was, but I decided to depart Impinj after 17 and a half years, which made me the most tenured tech CFO in Seattle by quite a long time.

CrisMarie: Wow. That is amazing.

Susan: Wow. I didn't know that. That is, that is quite extraordinary.

CrisMarie: Yeah. You had ... I can't believe you were the most tenured CFO in Seattle. That's amazing, but you wanted to do some new things, it sounded like.

Evan Fein: Yeah, yeah. After feeling accomplished, I figured out I attended 100 Impinj board meetings, did 18 budgets, and there were very few things I was doing for the first time that it would be a great time for me to learn something new, connect with my family, do all the great things that people do when they're not working. I traveled the world with my family, which was awesome. I got engaged, which was awesome. We went to Croatia, did that. I unexpectedly proposed in Croatia, which was great.

Then a lot of people were reaching out to me, a lot of companies were, and I wanted to be thoughtful, and so my main selection criteria when choosing my next adventure was my relationship with the CEO, and specifically, the level of EQ that I felt was around the table, but more importantly between myself and the CEO, and then next most importantly amongst the executive team. Frankly, I learned that a lot from working with you. I would have never ... I don't know if we had met had I made that the number one criteria, but now I would not be able to work somewhere where we did not have high levels of EQ that allowed us to have hard conversations. Frankly, I tell everybody who will listen, I'm like, "The reason that's so important to me is I know businesses are going to go up and down and we're going to have great quarters and hard quarters and great years and hard years."

Those successes and failures are inevitable. The question is how you move through those, not if you avoid those. The key to moving through those is being able to have the meaningful conversations that are required of management teams in order to be successful and figure out hard problems. When I placed that EQ selection criteria on my available opportunities, I was super pleased to choose Chef. Chef has a remarkable CEO and I have found what I was looking for it here, so very happy.

CrisMarie: I love it, that that's your number one criteria, especially since you have the business context goes up and down, but the relationships are constant.

Susan: I do just want to say, just in case anyone listening to this does not know, because I could immediately assume that Chef has something to do with cooking, which it doesn't, and I could also have no idea what Impinj was, which I do know what that is, but it may be helpful to just ... Because they're both in the tech world. It may be helpful to say something about each of those companies.

Evan Fein: Certainly. In fact, when I started at Impinj, I was employee number eight and Impinj was just a technology company, meaning we had a collection of patents on some novel semiconductor designs that allowed integrated circuits, which is a fancy way of saying chips, to adapt to their environment and that allowed them to operate at a much higher performance than normal. We didn't even know what market or what product. We had no market, no products, just a little bit of money and eight employees and some technology. We used that technology ... After several years we discovered, man, this technology could be very advantageous in the what was then called the RFID market. RFID is this awesome technology that allows you to connect items at a very low cost and communicate with small chips on items thousands of times per second, or thousands of items per second, from a long ways away.

Impinj pioneered this space. In fact, at this time the industry was very fragmented and there was no leader. We focused on it, became the leader and then kind of as the late ... Starting about 2014, 15 we renamed ... RFID was a term that didn't mean a lot to people, but being an internet of things for items company, as the term internet of things became more robust and frequently used, that started to have meaning. Impinj is able to connect trillions of everyday items, whether that's your luggage or your good to go pass when crossing tolls or your garments when you're shopping, connect those to networks for just a penny or two. That's what Impinj does. In order to do that, you make chips and readers and software to make the whole thing come together.

Chef is not software for restaurants like you said. Chef is called that because you configure like operating systems using recipes. In this new world where developers are making products in mixed environments, some on prem, some in the cloud, some using fancy products like containers and Kubernetes, and others using kind of maybe Windows 2008 and older legacies, we make systems operate at high performance, kind of independent of their computing environment they're in and make you be able to migrate them and manage them and configure them using recipes in a much simpler way than you would have to do otherwise.

Susan: Wow.

CrisMarie: It's kind of like the... Tell me if this analogy works. Now you have website designs or products like Wix or Squarespace that have recipes that you can plug and play. It kind of sounds like that for software development. Is that true?

Evan Fein: Yeah. That's a good analogy, yeah, and for many different environments, not just one given environment, but multiple environments.

CrisMarie: Wow, excellent. Wow. I love it.

Susan: I loved hearing that. I don't think I even knew that going in. That's pretty cool. I have a much better understanding now. What I was thinking about even when you were talking about these two different worlds and what you said leading into it about what you learned was how important it is to have that emotional EQ, because it's so clear in the technical world, and I remember working with your team in the beginning, there's no lack of smarts, very intelligent people working on some pretty high level patents, breakthrough innovation in that respect. At times, the most challenging part is how to deal with each other, because we aren't microchips and it is sometimes a lot harder to navigate that field of having people involved and not quite so binaries, one and zero, and writing code.

I think sometimes you guys came up against that.

Evan Fein: Yeah.

CrisMarie: Evan, talking about what was going on when you first reached out to us, what was the team struggling with when we first met?

Evan Fein: Sure, sure. Yeah. One comment for Susan and one for your comment, CrisMarie. Definitely, we have many, several of the smartest people in the room. Sometimes I put myself in that group and sometimes I don't, but like I say, not only have I come to believe that kind of uneven results are inevitable, but also that your strategy is wrong is certain. It's just like a budget and just like a plan. The moment you have your strategy, I guarantee it's wrong because the environment changes or you've misread a situation. That whole thing has to be dynamic. Since you're going to be changing so fast, you need to get the grit out of the gears. The gears are like mistakes and best intentions, but still mistakes and communications. I would say it's not even just how intellectually smart you are, it's just that also the need for a changing and dynamic strategy and a changing and dynamic marketplace, which requires really healthy communication.

Just wanted to comment on that Susan, and then CrisMarie, so at this time in 2008, I'd either just been made the CFO or I was the senior VP of finance, but I was at a point in my career where like for me winning was getting promoted and like personal contributions, and sometimes I use this coarse term, like collecting compensation nuggets. That's what I was about. I was really good at doing my job, meaning like the people that reported to me and the functions that reported to me, and then I thought my job was with whatever extra capacity that was leftover after I was able to optimize getting my trains on time, I would turn that over to the business. That was probably commonly held amongst everybody. If we all went away and did our thing and just relied on everybody to do their thing, then we can come together.

Instead, 2008, just maybe that would have worked in different areas. I doubt it, but 2008 was a really a rude awakening for technology companies, late 2008 and early 2009, because the financial markets collapsed, starting with Lehman Brothers and capital dried up. I remember like boats were like not moving in the harbor and we were really nervous about our business. Our market had not yet reached a tipping point. It was mainly early adopters that were using our products. If it's based on early adopters, that's not a big enough mass to like know what like they needed to run their business. These were customers that were leaning in and experimenting with the technology to gain competitive advantage. That's kind of the first thing that gets turned off in tough times really.

We figured, man, this is a rough go. What are we going to do differently? Our CEO at the time, Bill, very fortunate, he was open-minded on working with you guys. I actually don't know how we found you in the first place. Maybe you remember that story, but we hired you and took these assessments and started reading The Five Dysfunctions, which I thought was a crazy title for a book. I kind of liked The Advantage better than The Five Dysfunctions. That began this total turnaround in my thoughts on leadership, what my job was, how teams were to be successful. One thing about my personality is when like I see a model that I think works, I am all in. I became very quickly like the leader in accepting and demonstrating and following the things that you were teaching us.

Susan: I do want to come in here and comment on one thing, because I love the way you're sharing this story. I really do appreciate that part of you that was ... You were in your silo. You were the head of finance. I just remember ... Even you may not remember this, but I do remember when we first were talking to you, you were so good at like, "Look ... " I know the market was struggling. You said, "This is a high price tag." We said, "Okay, well you can pay us on a bonus, if this helps."

CrisMarie: Pay us half and if we're worth the bonus then afterwards, after the two day offsite, you can figure out if...

Susan: At some point, I think it was six months, you actually worked it pretty well because you said, well ...

CrisMarie: You were a good negotiator, Evan.

Susan: You said, "We'll wait the six months and then we'll see whether this really worked." I don't know if you remember this, but I do remember. Then when it came time and you said, "Yeah, I wanted to not have to pay you that $10,000, but I could not ... "

Evan Fein: Yeah, I happily paid that, an investment well worth it. I mean no greater proof than we've maintained our relationship. I bring in the models and so forth, and every team that I've been doing and would have a hard time going to one that didn't use what you were teaching, so I'm definitely a big believer.

Susan: You really have. I get that place you started was you really thought, "Here's where I need to focus." You've since learned there's a bigger kind of moving out of just the finance silo and being much more a part of a high performing team.

CrisMarie: Influencing the team.

Susan: Yeah, influence, because you were the person who everyone would say, "Well Evan holds us to the task of using this." I mean, because we weren't there. You were definitely the one calling people, it sounded like.

CrisMarie: Well, when we introduced you to the check it out model, which isn't in the ... That's in The Beauty of Conflict, which came later, our book, but you seem to take that on and use it. Tell me where I'm wrong.

Evan Fein: Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I have to tell you, I use it every day. In my role now I describe myself as kind of on a spectrum, if you can imagine, where on one end is like business executive, maybe more like COO-like, and on the other end is CFO and maybe finance and accounting leader. I'm so much more on the left than I am on the right. I'm like hugging the left border, being the COO border. That is where I add value to companies today. Of course I have domain expertise in finance, but that's not the value that Chef gets out of me. It's happening even today and just last week. Today's Wednesday, so six days ago I had a team offsite with my Chef team. This is a group of emerging leaders and only one of them had been through what we did. We read The Advantage, we did a team assessment based on the Lencioni model. I shared my personal leadership story in a super vulnerable way, ended up crying and I didn't even think I was going to do that.

CrisMarie: Wow.

Evan Fein: All of a sudden I can just see these emerging leaders, their eyes open about, "Oh, this is leadership. It's actually not about how well I run my function." This is how I lead now and I know no other way and it's really not about the business smarts. I have come to believe that the best performance at work is based on a human achieving their full potential, not their like work potential. In fact, I don't even know ... I'm pretty certain there's no difference. You just have to be able to show up authentically and keep growing as a human. I make that my mission. Sure enough, if I'm not still using your tricks even last week to bring a team along.

CrisMarie: Well they're not tricks, but I love that you're using them and showing up real and vulnerable. That's what ... I love that story, Evan, that you saw the impact to those people because that's where we really connect was when people are real and vulnerable. It garners so much kind of barriers dropping between us and no longer am I trying to prove how good I am. I'm actually showing up and wanting to do a good job for the boss or the team. It really transforms their relationships.

Susan: Yes.

Evan Fein: Yeah, I have definitely come to believe that being vulnerable, whether it's crying like I did it or apologizing ... I do a lot of apologizing, because guess what? I fail every day. I probably will fail a dozen times today, a dozen times tomorrow and a dozen times yesterday. The question is not if you fail. I mean it's great not to fail, but that's also inevitable, but I use those failures to make apologies, which also built bridges. I recently did this in front of the executive team. I felt like ... One of the things I'm working on is I don't suffer a fool. In one specific case, I don't suffer a fool. What I mean by that as if I feel like the team's made an agreement on behaviors and there's repeated violations, like on the nth one where n is four through eight, I'm like, okay, I've lost it, or like, you can't do this anymore. It comes off pretty sharp.

Anyway, I did that because that's one thing I'm working on. I made this apology to another executive in front of the team. I know it was a bridge, like that just made that team stronger and people can relax and know that we're all making mistakes. Am I still working on things? Absolutely, but I view ... Well, let me tell one more story. Vulnerability and apologies are opportunities, not problems. Then I do try that with my son who is 16 years old. We have a very tight relationship. I try to say, "Hey, being vulnerable actually is a sign of strength," but I just want you to know the 16 year old brain is not ready for that yet.

CrisMarie: I can imagine. "No way, Dad."

Susan: I can imagine though that it's still, you might be surprised, it may not be landing at this point, but I think the fact that you do that ...

CrisMarie: You model it.

Susan: You model it, will have an impact. Even the fact that you're not forcing it, but just here's where it is, I get this isn't registering, is a certain level of vulnerability that at some point I think will pay off in terms of your ability to relate to him. It's pretty neat. I do imagine though in your relationship it may. It may not with your son, but what about in your newer relationship?

Evan Fein: Oh gosh, yeah. I mean another ... Having a great high EQ relationship with your significant other is super important because once again it's just filled with challenges. I love seeing therapists and my therapist told me, "A third your relationship like is when things are going great, a third of it is when you're messing up, and a third of it is when you're rebuilding." Since two thirds of your time you're not in like the nirvana zone, the question is like how do you operate when you're not in that zone and do this with the best intent? Can you have those hard conversations? Man, is that just another place that's super important for me. I'm very fortunate to have a significant other, now a fiance, not yet a spouse, to be able to build a healthy relationship on. Every time ... Since one third of the time there's a setback, I just also view those as little proof points that allow you to just add a small brick to your foundation so that it's stronger all the time.

Susan: Exactly. I totally agree with you. I mean one of my favorite sayings, I don't know if I ever used it with you guys or not, but I use it quite frequently is this idea it's not what you do. It's what you do next. It comes into play because it's so often we will make mistakes. We are going to step on each other's toes. We are going to like do something that doesn't fit. It's like am I aware and paying attention enough because that's actually what matters is what I do once I do that. I think that's what makes the difference between something being a total failure and actually seeing it more as no, this is just how life goes, the good, the bad, the ugly and the beautiful, so to speak. How do you respond to whatever's presenting to you is the way you make it relational and real.

Evan Fein: You have to make it safe too for the person to give feedback. When you receive that feedback, can you say thank you? Can you stay open? Can you ask curious questions? If you can't do that, can you just say, "Hey, thanks for that. I'll come back to you. I'm not ready for that," anything better than the frontal brain activating into a ...

Susan: Yes.

CrisMarie: The amygdala hijacked where it's like, "Don't talk to me."

Susan: I think one of the things that comes up a lot is just, and this has to do with that vulnerability curve, is just being able to acknowledge, "Right now I am defensive and I want to receive this, but I'm not there," because that can be a huge statement when you get into that hijack as well. Like, "Okay, I'm owning it."

Evan Fein: You know what else I learned at the same time too? All these things ... The world is so complex and humanity is so complex. I appreciate all of that, but you also have to allow the grace. What we've started is a process and like a journey, not a destination. For example, this offsite we had last week, it comes on the tail of six months of some team building, but we hadn't really done what we did last week. People are giving ... We go around the room, we do give really good, clear, transparent feedback on something you do that helps the team and something you do that hurts the team. Not everybody can be as vulnerable as me and some folks are still learning.

I also find I have to have the grace to allow that we're moving in a direction but like not a status. Some people can embrace the model right away right now and others it's going to take longer, and yet sometimes that makes me anxious because I'm a big model embracer. It's just interrupting how all of that forming has to happen unevenly and we have to accept that.

Susan: Yes. I mean it's kind of like there will be some members of your leadership team that are like your 16 year old son. They're not there yet. That's not a bad thing. It's just like, can you have the grace to say, "Okay, we've started." Like you said, that's great.

CrisMarie: You may even find people will self select, like, "This is really not for me." That doesn't happen all the time, but if you're going to a depth ... Because what you're really creating is a level of intimacy in the workplace and that creates trust and then you can hold each other accountable by giving each other ... That is one of the kind of like what we say for teamwork, one plus one can equal 11 and we think that EQ factor is really what makes that 11 or one plus one can equal minus one where people aren't willing to show up and it's not safe and so they're managing their behavior for effect.

Evan Fein: I feel like I've been very fortunate because the leader really sets that tone of safety. Since I have tended to be the one that will lean into the vulnerability based behaviors the most, sometimes that means holding ourselves accountable and saying something really hard inside the room about somebody's behavior, but it can mean all types of things. I have always felt supported by the CEO. Of course now I interview for that, like I won't go somewhere in which I don't get that support, but the first two CEOs, Bill and Chris, were so supportive of me playing that role. If that hadn't happened, you can imagine you'd be like, "Oh, that's not safe in the workplace. I can't do that. That's not ... " People talk about it, but when the stuff hits the fan, you can't really do that. I feel fortunate and grateful that I always found support instead of pushback.

CrisMarie: I love it, and that now you're looking ... If you shift, you're using that filter to make sure it's an environment like that and that you can even create more of it. You're not even calling us into do your offsites, you're doing all this stuff because you've integrated it so much. I love that, Evan.

Susan: That's great.

CrisMarie: You've worked us out of a job.

Evan Fein: Right.

CrisMarie: Well, is there anything else if we ... If you wanted any final words that you wanted to leave people about conflict or leadership or teamwork that have really ... You've said so much but...

Evan Fein: Sure. There's certain words I love to use that I think turn the model on its head. What I mean by that is I love to say little phrases like mine for conflict, with my team and with the folks that report to me. I use that on the executive team. The mining for conflict just turns that whole thing on its head and it's like, "Wait, we're trying to do this?" Then you can say, "Yeah, there's goodness on the other side." I also say that feedback is a gift, like, "Thank you for giving me these little gifts of things that you'd like to see me ... " Sometimes we'll use the stop, start, continue model. To be able to view that feedback as a gift is another way of using words to turn these concepts on their head in a very like understandable way.

Then I have another one that I have come to really like is the platinum rule. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that, but the golden rule says do unto others as you want them to yourself or something like that. Then I came across the platinum rule and it says do unto others as they want done to themselves. Then I read this analogy and the guy was like, "Look, I just want everybody to know I really like berries and cream as my favorite food to eat, but when I go fishing, I don't put berries and cream on the hook because the fish actually prefer worms."

CrisMarie: That's a great way to tell that story. I love it.

Evan Fein: I loved his little understandable anecdotes that turn the model on its head and allow people to stand on something, as opposed to, I don't know, a whole model ... You can remember two or three things, mine for conflict, do the platinum rule, and consider feedback gifts and then you're probably pretty good to go.

CrisMarie: I love that, Evan.

Susan: It's great.

CrisMarie: I don't even know if you're turning the model on your head, but it's so countercultural, we don't think of those. To have those anchors that you can pull forward to help remind yourself and team members, hey, feedback's a gift, mine for conflict because there's beauty on the other side, we would say.

Susan: And the platinum rule. I love that.

CrisMarie: Our friends uses that a lot, the platinum rule. This has been excellent, Evan. You are so fun to interview and we love our working relationship and our expanding relationship with you over time. It's really a treat.

Susan: It's so great what you have done in your own career and the way you continue to utilize this and build stronger leaders as well as stronger relationships, your own.

CrisMarie: Yeah, at home.

Evan Fein: Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you. I couldn't have done it without you. I view ... When people ask me what ... In fact, you guys came up in my personal leadership story. One of the things you talk about is like major challenges you've overcome or when you've had a lot of leadership growth. You're one of two that I mention, my exposure to the model, to your offsite, to the Patrick Lencioni model, and then also my divorce as like those are the two things that I talk about in terms of my personal growth. Thank you for helping me start my journey.

CrisMarie: Oh, I love it, Evan. I think you used to say you drank the Thrive Koolaid or something. Was that it?

Evan Fein: Yeah.

CrisMarie: I love it. Well that was so fun to talk to Evan.

Susan: Yes. I mean-

CrisMarie: We've known him for so long.

Susan: We have. Without knowing exactly where he would go, it was just wonderful to see how much he has integrated for himself some of these things. He really applied it to how he created the next job that he wanted.

CrisMarie: The next relationship.

Susan: Lots of things and recognized that it's still a work in progress. I just love that.

CrisMarie: But it really did ... For those of you out there, we work with a team and we do use Pat Lencioni's books, Five Dysfunctions of a Team and The Advantage, because we used to work with Pat directly, as well as The Beauty of Conflict. All of those models, I just love how much he grabbed and he said, "I'm a model guy," so he grabbed a hold of them and integrated them over and over and over again across the ... He was the person when we would come in, he'd be like, "Wait a minute, I want to check something out," Chris or Bill or whoever else was on the team.

Susan: The way he emphasized the importance of giving feedback around behaviors, because I think a lot of times in business people will give feedback around deliverables or the smart side of the business, but they don't actually recognize that behaviors are the precursor to results. The ability to give someone you're working with some tough feedback that you think they're ... some behaviors they're doing that you think are getting in their way, that is probably one of the hardest things to get business leaders and teams to do and he was all in and committed to that.

CrisMarie: That's building accountability at a peer base. That is so powerful. When we see teams adopt that and actually start to give their peers feedback as well as their boss, "This is one thing you're doing that's helping the team. This is one thing that you're doing that's hindering the team," the velocity of the team increases so much because there's not all those, "Oh my gosh, I've got to talk about the person." I can talk directly to you.

Susan: Yes, so that was huge. I love that he so completely kind of paralleled how this applies both in business and at home. I love that he talked about in the couple ... This actually came from a therapist he worked with apparently, but I love that idea of one third of the time it's going to be like the romance and things are wonderful. One third of the time you're going to be deep into potential conflict or problems, and then one third of the time you're going to be rebuilding. We agree that that is ... We may name the stages a little differently in terms of how things go, but it's that same kind of concept. It's dynamic. He used that word and we really do think relationships are dynamic in business and in a couple.

CrisMarie: The power of being willing to be vulnerable and to say, "Hey, I made a mistake," or, "I'm sorry," or even showing your emotions, like that's a big deal. He's the CFO of the company and he's with leaders and he's telling his story, and he teared up and cried. I don't think that's staged. I think it's authentic.

Susan: Yes.

CrisMarie: That's what actually transmits and connects to people. Also the idea of silos, breaking down those silos, he just had so many ... He really has integrated what we teach in a way that sounds really powerful.

Susan: Indeed. You'll see in the notes, we'll put a reference to the Lencioni work so you'll know where to go to get it. We'll also maybe put some information in there about the couples ...

CrisMarie: Yeah, the couples book that's coming out.

Susan: Yes. All right. Thank you.

CrisMarie: Thanks for listening.

Susan: Take care. Well, thank you for listening to The Beauty of Conflict podcast. If you're dealing with a difficult situation in your life or work, remember every conflict is a chance for you to be vulnerable and curious and find creative solutions that you hadn't considered before and make your situation even better. Beautiful breakthroughs can be born out of conflict. We've seen this happen thousands of times over the last 20 years and we know this is possible for everyone, including you. We're grateful you listened to this show and we're rooting for you.

CrisMarie: If you enjoyed this show, please tell a few friends and/or post a five star review on iTunes. Your review helps new listeners discover this show. More people listening to this show means less friction and arguing and suffering out in the world. That's a great thing for everyone. Also, visit our website,, to read our articles, join our newsletter, buy our books, and learn more about the services that we offer. Thanks again for listening. We hope you have a peaceful, productive and beautiful day.


CrisMarie Campbell and Susan Clarke

Coaches, Business Consultants, Speakers and Authors of The Beauty of Conflict

CrisMarie and Susan work leaders and teams, couples in business, and professional women.

They help turnaround dysfunctional teams into high performing, cohesive teams who trust each other, deal with differences directly, and have clarity and alignment on their business strategy so they create great results.

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